|
Post by Cali on Jan 7, 2013 0:58:25 GMT 1
Indeed. As I said his definition of "chi" is staggeringly campy and chock full of bullocks.
To be honest, I really need to learn how to harness the true power of chi at some point in my life. In layman's terms I really need to learn how to stop being the neurotic jackass I am now.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Buch on Jan 7, 2013 1:22:07 GMT 1
This chi of yours sounds like a pretty superstition to me. Neuroses, mental processes, neurotransmitters, these exist. Learn about the brain and the mind if you want to learn; don't dress it up with a distracting fairy tale because it's more pleasing.
|
|
|
Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Jan 7, 2013 1:28:17 GMT 1
This chi of yours sounds like a pretty superstition to me. Neuroses, mental processes, neurotransmitters, these exist. Learn about the brain and the mind if you want to learn; don't dress it up with a distracting fairy tale because it's more pleasing. Ahh, but what do we truly know about the mind? Not the physical brain but what it can actually do? The intangibles that we call the mind? Not very much. Truth be told, I stay away from ki/chi explanations since most of what I know can be explained by medical and scientific fact (which is what I base the majority of my teaching of martial arts on). That said, I've seen and done some chi exercises that did what they were expected to do. It could be a placebo effect or it could be something else. I can't say for certain. Which is why, again, I don't teach chi-based technique. I don't know enough about it, I can't explain the mechanism behind it, and I don't even know if it's truly what some call "chi" or if it's some aspect of mental ability that isn't quite understood by medical science yet.
|
|
|
Post by jklinders on Jan 7, 2013 1:48:14 GMT 1
Whether it's based on science or hokum, I feel that the discipline of certain eastern techniques whether for martial or massage purposes seem to bring us closer to understanding our nervous system than looking at a cat scan. in other words they are on to something and have been for over a thousand years longer than we in the west even knew how important our brains are.
It is best to not stray too far to the mystical side of things but we really don't know what's is going on.
|
|
|
Post by Cali on Jan 7, 2013 2:03:20 GMT 1
This chi of yours sounds like a pretty superstition to me. Neuroses, mental processes, neurotransmitters, these exist. Learn about the brain and the mind if you want to learn; don't dress it up with a distracting fairy tale because it's more pleasing. No prob. I would suggest to do something other than the seemingly constant unpremeditated reactions that have anything do with faith/pietism. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you've always got a deck of the same card to play in these debates. I think I remember you saying somewhere on here that you respected the idea that faith brings people together, but nothing more than that, but still. This forum has gotten big, can't remember everything. I was mostly joking about the phenomenon, hence the (not so obvious, I admit) punchline at the end of the second paragraph. Regardless, even though that common sense, science, and critical thinking are markedly more important in furthering our species, I still am endlessly fascinated by the teaches of religion, spiritualism, and other such things. It's more a hobby than an actual obligation to completely follow it. I guess I just never understood why Buch has such an inimical reaction to nearly everything that has to do with any sort of orthodoxy, mythological creed or mysticism. If you want to discuss this further, I'd like to do it civily and without aggression, because that's the way I'd like to keep it. I don't want to become an Eastern Front of sorts when it comes to Clint in theological debates.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Buch on Jan 7, 2013 2:43:54 GMT 1
It's true I do have a very solid, one-note answer to any 'mysticism', superstition, religion or 'belief'. I guess the word for my general way of thinking is 'skeptic' Or 'realist' even. I don't believe in ghosts, or gods, or magic, or things that we have no reason to believe exist. I'm very very fond of science and reasoning. With the method of proving things and then believing in them, we've gone from gravity to evolution to space travel, and saved countless lives with our real, proven, actual medicines and surgeries. But it just boils down to one thing: the truth. I like the truth. I don't like people thinking that things are real when they just aren't. There is no magic, there is no reincarnation, there was no talking snake and there was no Thor. These are beautiful stories, and the way they shaped our civilisations was wonderful and brilliant in so many ways. But now all they give us is false hope and holy wars. I think it's time to stop 'believing' in things that are not real. -- I wasn't trying to be aggressive, guys. Sorry if I came off like a sneering jackass. I wanted to throw my opinion in there and I really did mean it in the interests of polite debate. And yeah, Cali - it's very similar to my opinions on things that also do not exist. There are no ghosts, there is no chi, there is no man with super strength who lost it when his hair was cut, there was no talking snake. (There WERE dinosaurs and there is a massive, constantly-expanding, unknowably-huge universe full of astonishing feats of nature in the good spots). There IS and was a chain of reproduction that began with congealing gases, slowly became single-cel organisms and moved to fish, to reptiles, to mammals, to animals that flung themselves into space, and are still going strong. Is that story not more wonderul, satisfying and inspiring than a transparent morality story about an angry authoritarian who made some people from clay and then punished them for having curiosity and disobeying their king? If not, maybe it should be. We're smarter than that now. But the made-up things that we came up with when we didn't know an better - these are fascinating and wonderful pieces of history and literature, but they aren't real. I understand that things like life after death, magic power and all-knowing, loving father figures hold a lot of appeal to human fears even today... but fear is a pretty dodgy mpotivating factor, isn't it? Don't be the guy who believes in something because it masks his fear. Deal with that fear and love the (magnificent, mind-boggling, awesome) real world. It's more interesting, bigger and more wonderful than the stories we made up to cover our glaring ignorance and calm ourselves down. I'm just really into truth. And I think it's time we let go of Iron age and Classical belief systems. They are only hindering us, and some of them are seriously hindering human rights, medicine, and the progression of society and invention. Every day, women are subjugated, used and mutilated, homosexual people are persecuted and bullied, real knowledge is denied and restricted --- all because scared or ignoant people are more comfortable believing in magic than hearing the truth. I think we as a species are ready to cast this kind of harmful crutch off now and get on with actually living on the real Earth, in the real cosmos. There is no such thing as chi. The human brain is really interesting though, and our study of it has made us better in every regard, as well as saved countless lives from physical and mental illness. If we want to learn about the way humans think, I recommend established psychological methods like scientific mass evaluation, psychiatry and case study. Careful and fair interrogation of ideas to find truth. Much, much less ancient folklore that we wish was real because it's comfortable. A lot of lies are comfortable. -- And now let us see if I can shut up for a while and not end up having yet another long, drawn-out row with someone of faith so I can convince them that their way of thinking is foolish. So far, it hasn't ever worked. EDIT: That essay will be all I have to say here, I promise. Not another post!
|
|
|
Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Jan 7, 2013 3:09:56 GMT 1
It's true I do have a very solid, one-note answer to any 'mysticism', superstition, religion or 'belief'. I guess the word for my general way of thinking is 'skeptic' Or 'realist' even. I don't believe in ghosts, or gods, or magic, or things that we have no reason to believe exist. I'm very very fond of science and reasoning. With the method of proving things and then believing in them, we've gone from gravity to evolution to space travel, and saved countless lives with our real, proven, actual medicines and surgeries. But it just boils down to one thing: the truth. I like the truth. I don't like people thinking that things are real when they just aren't. There is no magic, there is no reincarnation, there was no talking snake and there was no Thor. These are beautiful stories, and the way they shaped our civilisations was wonderful and brilliant in so many ways. But now all they give us is false hope and holy wars. I think it's time to stop 'believing' in things that are not real. -- I wasn't trying to be aggressive, guys. Sorry if I came off like a sneering jackass. I wanted to throw my opinion in there and I really did mean it in the interests of polite debate. And yeah, Cali - it's very similar to my opinions on things that also do not exist. There are no ghosts, there is no chi, there is no man with super strength who lost it when his hair was cut, there was no talking snake. (There WERE dinosaurs and there is a massive, constantly-expanding, unknowably-huge universe full of astonishing feats of nature in the good spots). But the made-up things that we came up with when we didn't know an better - these are fascinating and wonderful pieces of history and literature, but they aren't real. I understand that things like life after death, magic power and all-knowing, loving father figures hold a lot of appeal to human fears even today... but fear is a pretty dodgy mpotivating factor, isn't it? Don't be the guy who believes in something because it masks his fear. Deal with that fear and love the (magnificent, mind-boggling, awesome) real world. It's more interesting, bigger and more wonderful than the stories we made up to cover. I'm just really into truth. And I think it's time we let go of Iron age and Classical belief systems. They are only hindering us, and some of them are seriously hindering human rights, medicine, and the progression of society and invention. Every day, women are subjugated, used and mutilated, homosexual people are persecuted and bullied, real knowledge is denied and restricted --- all because scared or ignoant people are more comfortable believing in magic than hearing the truth. I think we as a species are ready to cast this kind of harmful crtch off now and get on with actually living on the real Earth, in the real cosmos. There is no such thing as chi. The human brain is really interesting though, and our study of it has made us better in every regard, as well as saved countless lives from cancer or mental illness. As Sagan said: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Prove that chi 100% does NOT exist. Prove it conclusively. (not calling you out, just saying that you're getting after us for discussing the possibility of one thing existing while you say with certainty that it does not without any evidence to back your claim; nothing more) The brain is the physical aspect, but the intangible, the actual MIND of a human isn't very well understood. You said earlier that empiricism relies on evidence. That swings both ways. Either I prove it does exist, or you prove it does not. If neither, then it's inconclusive. That's about as purely logical as it gets.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Buch on Jan 7, 2013 3:13:58 GMT 1
Iron, the claim 'chi does not exist' is not extraordinary. The claim that it does, is.
As for 'mind', what's your definition? For me, not something vague. An animal's mind is their conscousness, their sentience - in short, it is what happens in their brain that makes them do what they do. Their thoughts. That's what a mind is. We haven't fully figured it out of course, so may I suggest working at it rather than filling in the gaps with made-up answers.
The business about proving things do not exist - again, that is simply not how proof works! If a thing, like chi (or an invisible unicorn or whathaveyou) shows no verifiable evidence of existing when we search for it, we assume it does not exist. Yes, true, we can't prove the opposite, that it is false , but that's just the thing. We can't point to a non-presence - if it's not there we can't produce it! I can't prove vampires don't exist, but I certainly don't believe they do. People did believe in vampires in ages past though. Same with chi. The fact that something has not been proved to be false gives it a tiny sliver of possibility. It does not make it likely and it does not make the idea of its existence worth believing in. Just because something is theoretically within the realm of possibility doesn't mean it's just not been found. It could mean that, but it's staggeringly unlikely in the case of chi or our vampies or unicorns or ghosts - or anything else that we talk about but have never produced - because there is nothing to suggest it's real. Whilst they are possible (what isn't?), we have no evidence whatsoever to suggest they are anything more than that.
---
Hey, I broke a promise in the space of five minutes. Well done Buch, well done. Going to tie my hands up now.
|
|
|
Post by Clint Johnston on Jan 7, 2013 7:15:38 GMT 1
I've never considered Chi to be anything other than a way to sell couches.
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Glow on Jan 7, 2013 7:19:17 GMT 1
Chi = Bunkum Homies getting turned to salt and flown around in flying chariots = Legit
|
|
|
Post by Warhammer Gorvar on Jan 7, 2013 11:29:45 GMT 1
Cant faith work via Discworld settings? Like if I believe in Raptor Jesus, it exists?
|
|
|
Post by Clint Johnston on Jan 7, 2013 17:49:21 GMT 1
Chi = Bunkum Homies getting turned to salt and flown around in flying chariots = Legit LOL, Sounds Crazy, nu? But that's what you get when you believe in an all powerful God. Chi is us imagining we have control over the forces of the universe if we arrange them (and our bodies) just right.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Buch on Jan 7, 2013 19:31:28 GMT 1
Religion is us imagining an all powerful God.
|
|
|
Post by Warhammer Gorvar on Jan 7, 2013 19:46:34 GMT 1
I demand Raptor Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by jklinders on Jan 7, 2013 20:43:59 GMT 1
It's official all debate of religion and mysticism here has achieved the following status Let's move on now please...
|
|