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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 3:26:39 GMT 1
Post by Mister Buch on Apr 19, 2013 3:26:39 GMT 1
By the way, Mister Buch, if you ever have any questions about Wicca, just ask... Lily I didn't want to derail that topic any more than it already is, but I'd love to hear about Wicca from you. (Or anyone here). My first question would be 'What is it?' I seriously have zero knowledge of it. I saw it depicted in bad horror movies in the 90's, and there it appeared to be some sort of goth-like thing for women only and based on old traditions and I couldn't tell if it was a genuine belief in supernatural things (in which case I don't like it) or just some sort of metaphorical philosophy (in which case I probably don't like it) - an also in the movies it usually results in super-powers of some sort. That's all me trying to be funny but that honestly is also all I know about Wicca. But if you feel like educating me - I promise to be more open minded than the above! - let me know! No pressure - there is always wiki. EDIT: The wiki / wicca thing at the end of this post is not a pun but I wish I'd thought to do that. 2nd EDIT: It's 3:30, so I think my learning about this / any huge arguments about faith will have to wait.
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 3:57:57 GMT 1
Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Apr 19, 2013 3:57:57 GMT 1
I love being able to talk about Wicca / Paganism without having the other person start spouting anti-Wiccan tripe and accusing me of being evil! Sadly, that has happened a fair few times to me... and usually starts when some anti-Wiccan notices my pentacle necklace and comments negatively. As for the Hollywood / various movie portrayals of Wicca, I disapprove. Mostly. Some portrayals come a lot closer to the actual truth, but most just use it as a form of witchcraft (which it is, but not the way the movies show it) or devil-worship (which is so very far from the truth, since Wiccans don't actually believe in the One God or The Devil / Satan either. One particularly appalling example was the movie "The Craft", which portrayed Wicca as a way to get power without the proper beliefs... and insinuated a form of devil-worship, and the "Good Witch" was able to use her powers to defeat the "Bad Witches" but there was no real belief there... it was an entertaining movie, but... a terrible portrayal of Wicca. Depending on the branch of Wicca, the deities and beliefs and practices may vary, and I will freely admit I am not an expert on all forms of Wiccan / Pagan practices. My own set of personal beliefs are sort of a mix'n'match of various faiths, mostly deriving from the Pagans / Wiccans. And actually deriving a lot from " Dianic Wicca". As for what Wicca is: Wicca is in many cases a primarily Matriarchal religion, as opposed to the Patriarchal views of Christianity and other male-dominated religions. The figureheads to be worshipped in Wicca also focus on a Dualistic Divinity, with a " Triple Goddess" (associated with the Moon and stars and fate) and the " Horned God" (associated with the forests / animals and the realm beyond death. Now, the Horned God might be where the idea of Wiccans being devil worshippers came from, as the image of the Horned God is remarkably similar to the image of the Devil (and I suspect is a deliberate smear campaign of sorts concocted by Wicca's enemies). The Triple Goddess is a Divine Trinity of sorts, only instead of the "Father / Son / Holy Ghost" aspect, it focuses on the "Maiden / Mother / Crone" aspect of the Goddess. In my opinion, the Goddess is the figurehead, and the God simply acts as her Consort. Another thing is that Wicca does not necessarily have Churches or structural places of worship - it is also a nature-based religion, and a lot of the worship / practices take place out in the open, under the sky, so to speak. Now, without actually copying out word for word the various Wiki articles describing the different details of Wicca, I'll basically just answer any questions you have... but since I'm not sure what you're wanting to know (aside from what you've already asked), I'll need a basis to go on. Though I must say, I am thrilled to be able to discuss this with you... I do so love getting into serious discussions with you, Mister Buch! EDIT: That's actually a pretty cute pun, and I wish I'd thought of it too - but I didn't even see the pun until you mentioned it. Maybe I'm tired too... 2nd EDIT: It's midnight here, and I'm shockingly tired, so we'll have to discuss this later, as you said... ;D
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 4:09:35 GMT 1
Post by Mister Buch on Apr 19, 2013 4:09:35 GMT 1
This one probably won't be so much a discussion as just me asking dumb questions! I'll ask a few before I finally go to bed. It's nice to know that at least one religion in the world has a male and female god and that the male is not a King over the female. So the Goddess and the God - do you / other followers believe in them literally? Do they exist? Is there some sort of structure? Is there a head of the religion? When did this begin? You said it might be a form of witchcraft. So what's witchcraft? I genuinely don't know. I know that the word was used to mean 'evil magic' in olden times and that people like foreigners, Jews or just unpopular peasants were accused and killed to pass the time. But it sounds like you're talking about something else entirely? What's a pentacle?It sounds like you're a member? What's it like and what does it actually involve? Just your agreement with a belief in something, or some kind of organised worship? Many questions to be getting on with there!! I could just read wiki I know but I really tend not to understand when I do. I just know that the article will tell me a hundred things about the Goddess and the number of followers in the US before it tells me anything basic and I'll be like, "Yeah, but do they actually believe in these gods, or what?" I get that a lot with wiki - they don't take into account that the reader might know literally nothing, like I often do!
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 4:34:25 GMT 1
Post by jklinders on Apr 19, 2013 4:34:25 GMT 1
My limited experience with Wiccans in general indicate that there really isn't a formalized head of Wicca. Everything is kind of taken on a group to group basis using the general beliefs as a guideline.
As for the witchcraft angle...I'm probably a little off base here but I think "witchcraft" really is the term used to describe how Wiccans try to manipulate positive and negative...energies? or something to promote health and healing. Lily is looking over my shoulder as I type this and she is not telling me off so I must be close. The witchcraft traditionally was a combination of ritual and natural healing that seemed to lay outside of the beliefs held by more traditional scholars and religion.
Lily know a few boatloads more than me and she will reply more fully tomorrow morning. Her computer sleeps. Mine never does.
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 13:32:21 GMT 1
Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Apr 19, 2013 13:32:21 GMT 1
Hey now, if you're genuinely interested in the information, then no question is dumb... ;D The Goddess and the God exist for Wiccans the same way God the Almighty exists for Christians... we do believe in them literally, and pray to them / ask them for help in similar fashion to how Christians ask God for help... the thing is, though, is that it can be seen sort of as a psychosomatic thing - the help is granted to those who are willing to work for it. I mean, I can't just look up at the sky and say "Dear Goddess, please give me a windfall of money" and then sit on my arse and wait... it never works that way... As for structure and there being a head of the religion, there's not a central head like the Pope is for Catholicism, but if one is part of a coven, then there is a coven leader... sometimes, depending on the branch of Wicca being practiced, there might be two - Dualism, again, a Male and a Female leader. A High Priestess and a High Priest of the coven. As for when Wicca began, some of it's forms are so much older than Christianity... some form of Pagan nature-worship has existed almost since the dawn of humankind... however, the term Wicca specifically was developed and formed into a specific religion in the 1950s in England. As for the term "Witchcraft", the Contemporary WItchcraft refers to a subset of Paganism, and "involves varying degrees of magic, shamanism, folk medicine, spiritual healing, calling on elementals and spirits, veneration of ancient deities and archetypes, and attunement with the forces of nature". I will admit I used that line from the Wiki article, since they worded it better than I could, and more concisely. Compared to the misconceptions about Witchcraft from the time of the Witch Trials and the killings of innocent men and women, those people thought Witches were evil slaves of the Devil who used their powers and their connection to the Devil to put hexes and curses on people for malicious intent. Real Witchcraft however is the opposite of that - real Witches do not use it for malicious intent, and do not use hexes or curses to hurt people... rather, real Witches were more likely to use their knowledge (I won't say powers because it was more an Herbalism thing, really) to help people and heal their maladies. It was in part due to this less-traditional way of making things better that led to the Witches being misunderstood and accused of treachery. One of the more accurate media portrayals of this scenario was in the book "World Without End" and was also accurately portrayed in the TV adaptation - the character of Mattie Wise was a woman who practiced Herbalism and used nature-based medicinal methods to help people, and it led to her being accused of witchcraft (the misunderstood false kind) and put on trial - in the book, she was warned in time and managed to flee to safety, but her apprentice Caris was then accused in her place. In the TV adaptation, the mob managed to get Mattie herself on trial and ended up executing her. They claimed her medicines were evil and of the devil, and it was the men in the Church who accused her because her methods went against their own methods (and although her methods were more useful and actually worked, they were threatened by her success and wanted to get rid of her). As for what a Pentacle is, I realise you're most likely being funny there (you're adorable sometimes!) but just because I want to post a picture, this is a picture of the same pentacle I wear - it has the Theban alphabet around the edge... Also depending on the branch of Wicca / the person's beliefs, the Pentacle's five points are a reference to the five arcane elements (Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Spirit) and is also symbolic of Five being the number of Mankind (as according to Pythagoras). It can also be used as a symbol of protection from evil. As for whether I am a member or not - I guess that depends on interpretation. I do hold a lot of the beliefs, but I am not a member of a specific coven or group. Where people who are part of any religion might find themselves praying to their own god, I pray to The Goddess... but not on my knees, or out loud, or in any way where others can see or hear - to me, prayer is a very private thing not to be seen by anyone but the Goddess and possibly her Consort. And as for your last comment about just reading the Wiki, that would be a very easy way to make your head explode from Information Overload - it's entirely too much information all at once and covers all branches of Wicca / Paganism, so it's more difficult to get answers regarding any specific queries you might have. I'm happy to answer any specific questions, as evidenced by my wall of text here! ;D
Also - @linders - you were very accurate there! Good work! ;D
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 14:06:22 GMT 1
Post by Mister Buch on Apr 19, 2013 14:06:22 GMT 1
I was actually serious about the pentacle! Well I think I have an idea of how it is now. Thanks very much by the way - this is a lot of genuinely helpful stuff. I'm surprised it's only existed since the 1950's though. That was a big shocker. I think I will hit the Wiki next because I now have the gist. It's a straight-up religion with two gods, recently established but made almost entirely of very old traditions. I can read from there. I'm not sure I get the distinction with 'nature' though. Isn't that all religions? Any Sun god is nature, and Jehovah made the Earth, so. Is Wicca nature-worship in a way that especially opposes technology or harm to plants and animals? Why is it associated with women so much more than men, and why do all these characters on TV get powers? Is that just because the word 'witch' describes both this religion and the Christian/dark age idea of an evil magician, and the TV writers get confused? Or is there some sort of magic powers belief in the religion? And you mentioned 'elementals and spirits'. What are both of those? I'll probably run out of questions after that. Aside from my usual skepticism about any supernatural beliefs I wouldn't have much to say except 'Well I never knew that!' It would probably be more useful now to hear from some kind of opponent of Wicca, if you have enemies! so I could get two different viewpoints. Not that I'm saying yours is biased or anything like that.
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 15:25:55 GMT 1
Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Apr 19, 2013 15:25:55 GMT 1
Wicca is nature-based in the sense that plants and animals are - in a manner of speaking - sacred. Also, there's no blood sacrifice, no animal sacrifice, Wiccans (at least, not the path I follow nor the paths I know about) do not kill. The Goddess and the God do not demand burnt offerings of animals like other (unnamed) religions.
Elementals and spirits are just what they sound like - an elemental is a mythological being first appearing in the alchemical works of Paracelsus in the 16th century, corresponding to the four main arcane elements: earth (solid), water (liquid), wind (gas), and fire (heat). Spirits can be a reference to any immaterial or incorporeal being, sort of ghostly in a sense...
Wicca is not technically supernatural, in the common sense of the word. Also, I don't consider myself biased - as I stated before, my own personal beliefs are not all tied in to one unified religion - I draw on various different religions for my own beliefs, based on what feels right to me; and that includes parts of Christianity, Wicca, Paganism, Hinduism, etc.
As for Wicca having enemies - look no further than the Witch Trials, and the subsequent murders of innocent men and women. Most if not all of Wicca's enemies were / are misinformed people who actually are biased and simply do not understand, and so persecute and kill anyone who does not conform to their opinion.
Wicca is quite possibly the gentlest religion in the world - we do not sacrifice living creatures, animal or human... we do not wage wars on other people in any misguided attempts to force our beliefs down other people's throats... and if you'll notice, I did not start talking about it until an interest was expressed. I'm not trying to convert, merely educate.
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 15:49:25 GMT 1
Post by Mister Buch on Apr 19, 2013 15:49:25 GMT 1
I can't tell if you're annoyed at me or I'm just mis-reading it... the old problem with text conversations. I know you weren't trying to convert. Never thought that for a second. I only said I'd like to hear from any opposition as a student - I want to see the object from more than one viewpoint. And when I said your view was biased I did not mean that anybody else's was not, you know? Everybody's view is biased in favour of thing they like. I'm not trying to attack Wicca or your belief in it, I swear. In this thread I'm just enjoying the opportunity to learn about something I have absolutely no knowledge of. When I say 'What's an elemental?' I'm not trying to be sarcastic or imply that I dislike the concept -- I'm genuinely asking. I really don't know what that is. To me an element is something from the periodic table.
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 16:01:21 GMT 1
Post by jklinders on Apr 19, 2013 16:01:21 GMT 1
You're OK Buch. Lily was not taking any of your questions as sarcasm or concern over proselytizing.
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 16:04:28 GMT 1
Post by Mister Buch on Apr 19, 2013 16:04:28 GMT 1
Oh good - that's just me misreading the tone and getting the meaning wrong. That happens a lot in our arguments I think!
Okay well - I'm not sure what else I can ask without coming from a position of skepticism and making myself an opponent of the person giving me the information. You know what I mean? I can't ask much more without saying "I need this explained because it appears to be wrong to me".
So one more - is there a holy book or a set of rules?
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 16:05:24 GMT 1
Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Apr 19, 2013 16:05:24 GMT 1
I know you weren't accusing me of bias, and I know you were genuinely interested in the concept of elementals... I am not annoyed at you (silly text conversations - it is hard to convey tone ;D). I apologise for allowing my bitterness torwards other biases and other discriminations color my wording here, and I was not intending to upset you... To be honest, I'd like to see opposing viewpoints as well, as long as they are purely educational - but unfortunately, 99.9% of the time, opposition to Wicca generally takes on the whole "Witchcraft is Evil and you all must die" concept, which I do find offensive. So, I am still happy to answer any questions you have, and trust me Mister Buch - you have never yet offended me, and I think you'd have to work pretty hard to offend me - you and I think a lot alike in certain regards... As for a Holy Book (not really) or a set of rules, just check out the Wiccan Rede: that's the closest to a set of rules I can think of.
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 16:14:04 GMT 1
Post by Mister Buch on Apr 19, 2013 16:14:04 GMT 1
That's good. First time I read your post I was like, "Oh she's pissed off an misunderstood me." And then I took the brilliant and rare step of reading it twice, and I was like, "Oh actually, no she might not be at all." Hard to see why people would say it's evil, unless that just comes from centuries-old tradition. tradition has a lot to answer for. People will say and do, and believe, a lot of stupid stuff because their parents did or some druids did. But evil? A belief in a deity's existence and the harmless worship of it isn't ever going to be 'evil'. I suppose if guy A has a religion and then guy B shows up with a new one that contradicts it, guy A might think it's wrong in that it's against his god, who as far as he is concerned literally exists. Understandable that other religions might view Wicca as evil, but I still don't like it. So yeah - Why is it always women in the films? Is that just because the Goddess is female and people make a misconception, or is there some sort of belief in the religion that favours women over men or something?
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 16:19:17 GMT 1
Post by jklinders on Apr 19, 2013 16:19:17 GMT 1
A lot of the opposition to Paganism in the past and Wicca in the now can be directly attributed to the Christian Church's needy requirement to be recognized as the one true religion and they aggressively stamped out anyone who might dispute that. They did this to their own. The Cathars immediately come to mind here. But as much as possible they directed their energies elsewhere to create "enemies of the faith" I think to distract kings from realizing that Rome was tithing the ever loving fuck out of everyone.
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 16:21:54 GMT 1
Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Apr 19, 2013 16:21:54 GMT 1
Pretty sure the reason it's always women in films is in part due to the Rule of Sexy. *hiss* For some reason, the media portrayal of Witchcraft is sexy women in scanty black clothing worshipping in the nude under the full moon - which is a rather disturbing bastardisation of the truth.
In reality, Wicca is practiced by both men and women, and men are equal to women, though are not dominant over women... nor are the women dominant over men. It is one of the only truly equal religions I can think of.
I never understood why people viewed it as evil either, to be honest... I remember my father trying to tell me it was not a real religion because it is not practiced in a central building... but he was raised Roman Catholic, and has the ingrained brainwashing that happens when one is raised that way and therefore cannot comprehend that there are other views other than theirs.
Sounds so familiar here, eh?
Anyway, back to your question - women are not necessarily favoured over men, per se, but... Wicca is a nature-based religion, and therefore has a lot to do with fertility... and men cannot give birth, women are the ones who concieve of new life and carry babies to term and bring new life into the world - the men merely assist in the conception, but the rest is women.
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Wicca
Apr 19, 2013 16:23:52 GMT 1
Post by Mister Buch on Apr 19, 2013 16:23:52 GMT 1
(I had no idea there was a real world thing called 'Cathar'. As a Knights of the Old Republic fan this amuses me tremendously.)
I'd dare say ancient Rome and the various kingdoms after the fall used Christianity like a weapon or a brand name more than an actual religion. How you can believe the New Testament and simultaneously believe in humans casting magic is beyond me. The kind of Christianity that existed in the Empire and in Medieval Europe seems very different to the kind we have now.
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