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Post by Clint Johnston on Feb 28, 2013 8:14:47 GMT 1
Ok, so this thread may bomb out entirely or might catch fire and go on for 30 pages before someone realizes they're responding to their own post. The issue I wish to discuss is human sexuality. When is it determinable? Not what is moral, but when does a child really have a clue and able to make the decision on their own? Why I bring it up: www.cnn.com/2013/02/27/us/colorado-transgender-girl-schoolBegin!
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Post by lieden on Feb 28, 2013 12:01:05 GMT 1
Do you think there's an answer of 'when' that could over each and every case?
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Post by Warhammer Gorvar on Feb 28, 2013 12:59:42 GMT 1
I dont see why this would start WWIII Clint...i am dissapoint.
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Post by jklinders on Feb 28, 2013 13:36:01 GMT 1
By way of answer I will quote what a homosexual man that I worked used to say to people who asked him "when did you know you were gay?" His answer was "when did you know you were straight?"
I like that answer as it it does in my opinion two things. it makes the asker think about how they came to the conclusion they were what they were. Did someone tell them that they were or did they work it out on their based on their own feelings. The other is it kinda points out that everyone is different in how they work out their own sexuality and sexual identity.
I have had zero contact with transgender folk. But psychologically they are completely different than homosexuals. Where you cannot really know which gender you are sexually attracted to until you start to have sexual feelings (in my opinion at least and I think some of the psychiatry backs me up here) gender identity is something that is understood at a very early age. Many transgendered people have reported feeling like the sex opposite they were born to for as long as they can remember.
People have also made some mistakes in this regard as well. In Canada you do not get a sex change operation at the drop of a hat. There is a psych eval, a period where they live as the opposite gender, then hormone therapy and if everything psychologically checks out up to that point you can finally go under the knife.
people are unique. Some know this shit from birth, others take some time to come to it. When they know it they know it and when it is known they need help and support, not skepticism and conflict.
My .02
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Feb 28, 2013 14:17:01 GMT 1
I think people know as soon as they are old enough to understand what gender is - I always knew I was a girl - I liked playing with dolls, and reading books, and staying clean and inside, and I always liked wearing dresses and skirts - my brother on the other hand liked playing outside, climbing trees, playing in the mud, and generally being very very boy-like.
Now, I do realise that girls can like the outdoors and can go on not caring about getting dirty and whatnot, and not all girls like reading / playing with dolls just as not all boys like playing outdoors; but generally I think any child is able to know for themselves whether they are Boy or Girl at the soul level.
As for that article, I feel so bad for that child for the school situation, but I am immensely happy to read that Coy's parents are so accepting and supportive of her...
As for me, I've never actually spoken to a Transgender person face to face (that I know of) but over the course of my job (I work for an insurance company) I've had to change peoples' genders on their policy documents due to gender changes being finalized - and havng had a rather fascinating conversation with one particular F-to-M person, I was left thinking how awesome it is that medical technology is able to fix these mistakes that some people are unfortunately born with. And this person I had spoken to (and honestly, he was awesome - I could have happily spoken to him all day!) said they knew as soon as they started seeing other children in playschool / daycare whatever it's called when children go to a group who are too young for primary school. He said he always knew he was male, even though his body said otherwise. So he started the very long process of becoming physically male to match the soul inside, and was as of the day he spoke to me, finalizing all his accounts to show the corrections.
I agree with Linders though - all people are unique. Some people know right away, and others might not know depending on how sheltered their lives are before they realize.
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Post by jklinders on Feb 28, 2013 14:24:45 GMT 1
One other thing.
After re-reading your OP Clint, you mention sexuality as the topic you wish to discuss. But transgenderism is a completely different thing. Sexuality has to do with feelings of sexual attraction and this girl is transgendered which means even though physically a boy she is a mentally a girl. These are two separate issues that are treated very differently psychologically.
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Post by Clint Johnston on Feb 28, 2013 14:39:02 GMT 1
Hmm. But is any person qualified to make forever decisions about their life at age 5? I mean if they have always felt that way, finalize the deal when they're 18, but until then offer them the reverse button. This boy/ girl is going to get hell in high school because he/she's parents didn't say "No, you're a boy. Boys can play with dollies too" and went nuts trying to protect his/her gender choice.
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Post by jklinders on Feb 28, 2013 16:52:56 GMT 1
I'd say it's not a forever decision until surgery is involved. Surgery in Canada at least cannot be involved until one is an adult.
Here's an idea though. Until a psychiatrist gets involved saying that the child is not trans (it's implied by the article that she already has seen one) let's follow the experts on this. I found the comments by a large number of out and out haters under that article appalling and all of them were saying that abuse and neglect were involved because this kid is going through something they will never understand.
I knew I was a boy. That goes from before I was old enough to know the difference between boys and girls. I think until you go through a feeling that something is just not right with you it's nearly impossible to place yourself in their shoes. This is why experts and not idiotic internet haters and equally blind school officials are out of line here.
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Post by Mister Buch on Feb 28, 2013 17:12:39 GMT 1
By way of answer I will quote what a homosexual man that I worked used to say to people who asked him "when did you know you were gay?" His answer was "when did you know you were straight?" That's just about it, in my opinion. You don't *know* for a long time. For my own life as an example: I assumed I was straight until I was about 16, and I saw a good-looking guy in a movie and said aloud, "Wait - what?" At that point I suspected I was gay or bisexual. And a few years after that I kissed a bloke and I thoght, "Yes that is pretty good." Now I'm 28 and I know I go both ways, but I couldn't tell you when exactly I went from being unsure to knowing. If you're attracted to the same gender exclusively from a very young age, the same way most of us are to the opposite gender, you probably know you're gay right there. But when it comes to fiddly stuff like fancying both, or transgender identity, then I would suggest it usually takes a long time to figure out. However (unless you unfortunately happen to think it's sinful to be gay or transgender, hello WW3 how are you today) then there's not much of a problem here. Until you do something like get an operation or marry somebody, there is nothing you can't change your mind about. One's own sexuality, especially transgender sexuality I should imagine, is something that takes time and experience to fully 'know'. Even if you're lucky enough to have it all laid out for you and be born into the most numerous, politically dominant group. But there is no harm, and no evil, in taking your time to figure it out. Wearing a dress is not a forever decision. Dresses can be taken off and it's a lot better to grow up to be 'that guy who used to wear dresses when he was little' than 'that person who never dared to figure out what he or she wanted'. You know what I mean? Unless you think it's a sin - and by the way it isn't - then there is no harm, no permenance. Of course, homophobic people are everywhere and they usually will find a way to make it more difficult and scarring. This first-grader in the news here --- I would say she (I'm saying she because she figures that's correct) is too young to know for sure whether she is (or would like to be - semantics) male or female. But that doesn't mean that any answer other than the default is wrong, or dangerous. There is obviously something there. Let the kid figure out what it is for herself and try not to kick her in the face for it. --- The Kevin Smith movie 'Chasing Amy' has a great line that answers the question of 'When / how do you know your sexual orientation and identity?' in a way that I think is very perceptive and clever: "Maybe you knew early on that your track was from point A to B, but unlike you I was not given a fucking map at birth, so I tried it all."
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Feb 28, 2013 17:41:10 GMT 1
By way of answer I will quote what a homosexual man that I worked used to say to people who asked him "when did you know you were gay?" His answer was "when did you know you were straight?" That's just about it, in my opinion. You don't *know* for a long time. For my own life as an example: I assumed I was straight until I was about 16, and I saw a good-looking guy in a movie and said aloud, "Wait - what?" At that point I suspected I was gay or bisexual. And a few years after that I kissed a bloke and I thoght, "Yes that is pretty good." Now I'm 28 and I know I go both ways, but I couldn't tell you when exactly I went from being unsure to knowing. If you're attracted to the same gender exclusively from a very young age, the same way most of us are to the opposite gender, you probably know you're gay right there. But when it comes to fiddly stuff like fancying both, or transgender identity, then I would suggest it usually takes a long time to figure out. However (unless you unfortunately happen to think it's sinful to be gay or transgender, hello WW3 how are you today) then there's not much of a problem here. Until you do something like get an operation or marry somebody, there is nothing you can't change your mind about. One's own sexuality, especially transgender sexuality I should imagine, is something that takes time and experience to fully 'know'. Even if you're lucky enough to have it all laid out for you and be born into the most numerous, politically dominant group. But there is no harm, and no evil, in taking your time to figure it out. Wearing a dress is not a forever decision. Dresses can be taken off and it's a lot better to grow up to be 'that guy who used to wear dresses when he was little' than 'that person who never dared to figure out what he or she wanted'. You know what I mean? Unless you think it's a sin - and by the way it isn't - then there is no harm, no permenance. Of course, homophobic people are everywhere and they usually will find a way to make it more difficult and scarring. This first-grader in the news here --- I would say she (I'm saying she because she figures that's correct) is too young to know for sure whether she is (or would like to be - semantics) male or female. But that doesn't mean that any answer other than the default is wrong, or dangerous. There is obviously something there. Let the kid figure out what it is for herself and try not to kick her in the face for it. --- The Kevin Smith movie 'Chasing Amy' has a great line that answers the question of 'When / how do you know your sexual orientation and identity?' in a way that I think is very perceptive and clever: "Maybe you knew early on that your track was from point A to B, but unlike you I was not given a fucking map at birth, so I tried it all."Might I just say that I think you're right on the mark there, about not having a specific point of knowing, but rather figuring it out as time goes by? As for the bisexual thing, liking both genders (or all three, if you count genderqueer), my own realisation was rather similar to yours there, Mister Buch... I 'knew' from a young age that I was 'straight', because as an adolescent, and young teenager, I had the usual crushes on boys in my school... but those were just crushes, and I knew it at the time. Similar to what you said, right around the time I was in late High School (maybe around the age of 17 or so) I started to realise that my appreciation of attractive female celebrities was not just objective observation, and then I started developing minor crushes on women. Now, I can honestly say I have never actually had a girlfriend, but I think the only reason for that is because I met the perfect love of my life in Linders, and now would not trade him for all the anything in the world. But to be honest, love and (more on point to this thread) gender identity should not be a rigid gender-specific thing - a person should be allowed to identify as whatever their soul tells them they are.
Also: that little girl in the article - Clint, in reference to your question about whether a 5 or 6 year old can know at such a young age what they want in life - did you not see the part in the article where it specified that after she had identified as female since she could express herself? If she is only acting as her personality naturally expresses, how is that "not knowing"? And what about under the heading "A Little-Studied Group" where it states: ? Children are a lot more in tune with their own thoughts, feelings and opinions than most adults give them credit for. And since irreversable surgery is not an option until they are adult, that just means they have more years to live as their identified gender and really have time to experience life as that gender before making the final decision - which just means that they will be very very certain when the time comes for the final decision.
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Post by Mister Buch on Feb 28, 2013 17:46:53 GMT 1
Good stuff in the post above.
Kids don't know what they want in life and neither do most adults. Doesn't mean they should be restricted from trying to find the answer. What's the downside to that kid calling herself female? I see two - she will be bullied a lot / unpopular with bogots and if she ends up going as male then she will feel slightly silly. Neither one of those are worth denying or repressing your feelings for.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Feb 28, 2013 18:56:00 GMT 1
Kids don't know what they want in life and neither do most adults. Doesn't mean they should be restricted from trying to find the answer. What's the downside to that kid calling herself female? I see two - she will be bullied a lot / unpopular with bogots and if she ends up going as male then she will feel slightly silly. Neither one of those are worth denying or repressing your feelings for. Very good point.
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Post by lieden on Feb 28, 2013 20:28:48 GMT 1
I used to play with a boy during our summer holidays. He was very girl-like; delicate, liked pretty things, making arrangements with sea pebbles and flowers. His parents (who were, by the way practically illiterate - they were shepherds on a remote island in the North Aegean) found his preference for dresses amusing and let him do as he liked. He WAS very pretty, and his mother liked to dote on him, I think. Later on things got uglier as he was tagged as the 'village gay' - small society prejudices together with endemic homophobia (Greeks are about as homophobic as can possibly get, which is kinda ironic considering our past). But nothing extreme, thankfully. I think it's important that he wasn't forced to act against his natural inclination. And for the matter, I think he has huge balls about being openly gay. Not many people do that in Greece.
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Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Feb 28, 2013 20:33:53 GMT 1
I'll stay out of this one except to say that if they're not hurting anyone, then who cares? Leave them be and let them live their lives as they see fit.
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Post by lieden on Feb 28, 2013 20:42:12 GMT 1
It is far more interesting to me to understand homophobia than to understand gay or transgender people. Mostly because I identify with the latter much more than I do with homophobic people. Growing up, I didn't have a very clear sense of my gender. I knew I was a girl alright, I played with dolls, used to sew clothes for them and all - but all my role models were male. I had a tomboyish attitude and it was only in my late teens/early twenties that I slammed, face-first, into the reality that some things are out of limits for women, behaviour-wise. Damn that hurt. Still does, occasionally. Back to homophobia, though. Any insights?
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