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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Feb 28, 2013 20:48:54 GMT 1
Back to homophobia, though. Any insights? I will never understand homophobia. I've said before, and will say again, I have never and will never understand why it's supposedly such a bad thing - love is love, right? Regardless of who loves who? I think it's disgusting that people are harassed and denigrated and vilified for something so pure and innocent as love, and I have never heard a convincing argument or point to convince me otherwise. Every single argument anyone has ever used in debate with me over the so-called "wrongness" of homosexuality can be shot down and proven as an invalid argument. Every. Single. One.
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Post by Mister Buch on Feb 28, 2013 21:05:07 GMT 1
Homophobia has three main arguments in my experience -- 1) It's gross (usually applies to men only), 2) It's not natural, 3) The Bible and Qu'ran say it's wrong and the person happens to believe in them. As well, I find a lot of homophobic people have misapprehensions about what it is to be gay, e.g. it's a choice, gay men are predators, it's a mental illness.
The first two are sheer ignorance and the religious one is a bit different.... a different argument, but with apologies to the religious here I would say it's just as ignorant and even more dangerous. Those two damn books have a lot to answer for.
And I reckon the other thing about homophobia is that it's the norm. People will go with the norm and it will become ordinary. Ways of thinking, and ideals, are passed on through parents and within communities. Understanding and accepting homosexuality is still not normal in the 'Western' world and absolutely not in other parts, whereas fear, persecution and mockery of it is.
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Post by Battlechantress on Feb 28, 2013 21:06:47 GMT 1
Want to know why the Bible says it's wrong for "men to lie together"? Because then, as now, straight guys couldn't handle the thought of two guys going at it, but two women making out still turned them on.
That's all I'm offering for this so-called "debate". I already know certain minds will remain closed.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Feb 28, 2013 21:08:42 GMT 1
Want to know why the Bible says it's wrong for "men to lie together"? Because then, as now, straight guys couldn't handle the thought of two guys going at it, but two women making out still turned them on. That's all I'm offering for this so-called "debate". I already know certain minds will remain closed. Damn that stupid double standard... I get just as much of a smile from seeing two men kiss as seeing two women kiss and seeing a man kiss a woman... it's not a turn-on for me, it's about seeing two people in love be able to be happy with each other.
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Post by Mister Buch on Feb 28, 2013 21:09:30 GMT 1
Want to know why the Bible says it's wrong for "men to lie together"? Because then, as now, straight guys couldn't handle the thought of two guys going at it, but two women making out still turned them on. Well - yeah. Exactly. Two guys is gross, two women is hot. That cruel and senseless way of thinking has always been with us, and that the authors of the books of the Bible and Qu'ran decided to include it was a real shame. Once an archaic and base way of thinking is bound in leather and claimed as holy, it's really hard to get rid of. See stoning, execution, sexism, etc etc etc.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Feb 28, 2013 21:12:26 GMT 1
I remember once when someone found out I am bi, and am attracted to women as well as men, and they had the nerve to say to me "Wow - your boyfriend is a lucky man!" and they were referring to the idea of me being 'willing' to have a threesome, or being 'willing' to get with a girl for my boyfriend's viewing pleasure... to which I replied "Yes, he's lucky I am a loyal and faithful girlfriend who will not cheat no matter what!"
That stupid double standard pisses me off more than a lot of other things.
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Post by lieden on Feb 28, 2013 21:14:21 GMT 1
I was told something interesting by a person who cannot be called a homophobe by any means; he works together and is good friends with a gay guy. So, he told me he has a visceral reaction to displays of male-with-male sexual activity, and finds it repulsive. He'll be the first to say that it's normal, and is never judgemental about it, but he admits feeling uncomfortable about witnessing it - the way I understand it, at least. And I wonder if any other straight guys have similar reactions, and if so, whether such a thing is the real homophobia, setting it apart from common bigotry (which is about people shrieking that homosexuality is wrong).
But then there are other questions. Why homosexuality wasn't something that bothered people in Greece 2500 years ago, but it does now, for example?
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Feb 28, 2013 21:19:55 GMT 1
But then there are other questions. Why homosexuality wasn't something that bothered people in Greece 2500 years ago, but it does now, for example? Change of Religion. 2500 years ago, Greeks were polytheistic - had the Olympian Pantheon, or whatever it's called - the Twelve Major gods / goddesses, etc. Now, though, isn't Greece mostly Greek Orthodox / Christian? Following the Bible and the brainwashing - I mean - 'teachings' therein? By the way, whatever happened to the belief in and following of the Olympians?
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Post by lieden on Feb 28, 2013 21:34:35 GMT 1
It can't be just that. And if I recall, it wasn't actually that simple even in Ancient Greece. Socially accepted homosexuality (among men) was actually more like what we'd call paedophilia these days, because the relationships were among older men and adolescent boys. There WAS social stigma about not marrying and having children. But nobody was really wandering about shouting that it's wrong or a sin for men to have sex with men, okay. Even modern Greeks don't really buy into the 'sin' thing - except for religious loonies, those are everywhere. The cultural stance is more about mockery and dismissal and has a lot to do with male identity rather than anything else. A common way to insult ANY man is to call them gay (in the many different, colourful words we have to describe gays), which implies that they are not a man after all. As for the cult of the Olympians: it got mixed up with other deities, had a brush with agnosticism, and was replaced by Christianity. But the Eastern Church has a decidedly polytheistic flair, because saints are so important to it. A lot of people (especially women) prefer to pray to Mary (she is called the All-Saint, here). Areas and cities have their own patron saints, with feast days in their honour. And so on. I'm sure it's a remnant of the old religion. Another thing that has persisted is the imagery of Hades and Charon. I don't think Greeks ever really bought into the whole Heaven deal. There are a few people who have revived the old cults... they're generally rather eccentric.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Feb 28, 2013 21:39:33 GMT 1
Huh. The more you know. I have wondered for a long time what happened to shift the Greek beliefs from the Olympians to the Christian Faith... I still don't understand the implication that gay men are not men - it doesn't make sense to me. But maybe that's just because I don't believe there's anything wrong with being gay at all... ah, who knows. I'll just continue on believing what I believe, and hoping that the hate and discrimination will eventually be ended.
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Post by Mister Buch on Feb 28, 2013 21:43:36 GMT 1
Yeah I was going to say - as far as I've heard the classical Greek thing about men and boys was rather more to do with men owning young boys as status symbols than it was to do with love between two guys. The gist I have is that these relationships were prestigious and perfectly accepted, even in favour of standard male/female marriage, but it was more like slavery than romance.
As for how Greece changed its attitudes to homoseuality - I don't know the first thing about Greece but the impression I get is that the collapse of classical civilisation and the Abrahamic domination and 'dark age' that followed had something to do with it.
But like I say all of the above is just stuff I heard on TV somewhere or other, and I'm just going on to sound clever.
By the way we might be veering off topic here - Clint was taking more about transgender identities and kids. I don't know what else to say about that one though.
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Post by lieden on Feb 28, 2013 21:47:39 GMT 1
I don't think ANYONE has a clear idea of how a gay man is not a man. Except for the obvious i.e. if they have a feminine behaviour - that's mocked or attacked. More 'manly' gays get a different treatment, more standoffish. 'Who would have thought?' Or something along those lines. Aaaand, I shouldn't forget how the ultimate assertion to maleness seems to be the figurative rape of another guy. Really, the mind boggles. (I'm glad the Olympian cult died.That pantheon was a dominated by a bunch of rapist assholes and mean, vindictive bitches. )
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Post by Mister Buch on Feb 28, 2013 21:49:58 GMT 1
This whole business of gay men 'not being men' is very interesting. I saw a documentary the other day where Eddie Izzard visited remote, stone-age African tribes. They saw his nail-polish and told the camera that he wanted to be a woman instead of a man. Sounds similar to the idea of men not being men if they sleep with men.
The idea that gender is determined by behaviour. I'd say it's an insidious way to enforce male domination. Some behaviours are male and some behaviours are female. The male ones involve power and control (because hunters need some upper body strength) and the female ones incude cooking, cleaning and looking pretty. Because... they don't have the upper body strength I suppose. So by enforcing these strict rule-sets about what men can do and women can do --- even now that we don't hunt and have grown towards equaity in many areas --- the male domination remains. Boys play with Transformers and guns, girls play with dolls. These are the rules and if you break them you are weird. Boys prepare for war, girls prepare to raise chidren, the warriors are in charge. Sheer tradition keeps terrible, outdated, foolish things like this in place.
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About the Greek Pantheon - I kind of like them! I mean I certainly couldn't being myself to worship a rapist like Zeus, but I like that they are depicted as flawed and emotional, even seen as villains in some stories -- unlike the Abrahamic God who is simply an indisputable, all-knowing King who must be obeyed and never questioned.
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Post by lieden on Feb 28, 2013 21:53:08 GMT 1
Buch, it wasn't quite so. It could be quite romantic. I remember a text from Plato we did at school which I found pretty funny, as some young guy was complaining very emphatically about Socrates ignoring him, while the young guy claimed to be head over heels in love with him. :} By the way, I thought veering off topic was the objective of every thread in this forum.
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Post by Clint Johnston on Feb 28, 2013 21:53:17 GMT 1
Told ya.
Transgender child - If your child started killing things for fun, would that be ok? If they stole whatever they got their hands on, is that just being in touch with themselves? The point of parenting is to be a guiding influence on our children's lives. To encourage them in their gifts, and discourage them from wrong behavior. Not many parents live this out nowadays, and those that do usually take it too far. These parents have really screwed up in taking their son/daughter out of the school system and "letting her grow". Now he/she's removed from all influence that might educate him/her to respect opinions other than his/her own. All this over a bathroom? Dear God, what is going to happen when he/she encounters the police for the first time? "I have a right to do as I please, and you can't stop me because it's intolerant" Whatever happened to respecting other people? It's simply a bad attitude to have.
I speak from experience here, at least on the schooling issue. I was homeschooled all the way through high school, and it took me quite some time to adjust to the way "normal" people live their lives. Some would say I still haven't. It's given me a fierce independence, and discerning mind, but I wonder if I hadn't been exposed to it just a little if I might be able to fit in more. This poor kid, thanks to hyper-protective parents with a social agenda, is being raised as a banner for a cause he/she doesn't have the foggiest clue about. Better to tell the child that he/she is expected to use the male restrooms out of respect for others than to pull him/her entirely.
Homophobia - I disagree with homosexuality. A lot of people would say that's homophobia. But we've been down that road. All I wish to offer here is that I don't allow a double standard on it. It's not Men = Bad, Women = Good. The Bible doesn't offer that option, and I don't support those who allow their lust to overrule what they claim to believe.
Whether it's normal or not I can't say. They've also proven that Men are predisposed to infidelity. What's normal is not necessarily what is right. I don't propose to legislate my opinion on this. Nor do I support the "God hates queers/fags/other derogatory epithets" crew. God loves everyone. He died for everyone. I can't hate gay people if I claim to love him.
Perception of homosexuality - I would say that 2500 years changes a lot of perspectives. A lot happens. The Catholic church has had a lot do with it (ironically enough, given the recent scandals). The homophobia on display is usually hysteria at the frustrations of life given a "safe" target.
EDIT: (Posted several posts behind. Last post while I was writing was when Lieden first mentioned 2500 years)
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