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Post by jklinders on Sept 28, 2012 13:39:46 GMT 1
I find myself agreeing with a lot of the stuff Iron has said. But really there is more going on under the hood here.
For years a private health care funded think tank has been trying it's damnedest to get us on board the whole private health care train up here but even they admit that US health care costs more than double per capita than it does in Canada. I'm not talking numbers that an be accounted for via population differences but per capita. So in spite of the fact that there are a good chunk of the population not covered by any kind of insurance at all it costs more in the US to deliver services than it does here. Now the emergency care and medicaid in the US is as rationed down there as it is here so whence comes the cost difference?
The solution to me seems that the US government is so bloated and overweight that it needs to be replaced.
the electoral collage system would work just fine if there was not this hackneyed winner takes all thing for the state's college votes. Honestly Obama or Bush or whatever gets one vote more than the other in one small part of a populated state and the whole basket goes to the winner? this was supposed to ease corruption how?
Bah! It's simpler up here. I like it that way. But it's no closer to perfect than any other republic or parliamentary system I have heard of.
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 28, 2012 14:06:43 GMT 1
The problem with politics is that unless you're completely disinterested then you know what's what - you know that such a party/candidate is useless or corrupt or morally corrupt or a puppet -- and you know that this other guy is good and honourable and decent and stands up for what's right -- and you just can't figure how your friends and smart people have the opposite view on this. And in the past, when this happenned in a country there would be a war, which would be fine because at the end of it you were either victorious and thus validated, or you were cruelly put down by evil-doers, and thus validated.
I don't know what to do with this system where a person can say something that I find completely repulsive and I can't throw a spear at them, and maybe if enough people fall for their bullshit, they'll flat-out get hired to run the free world and people you know will be happy about it. It's like going to war with boxing gloves on. It's very frustrating.
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Post by jklinders on Sept 28, 2012 15:28:08 GMT 1
Such is the price of free speech Buch
As repulsive as it is, we need to let folks get away with little untruths being spoken so as not to trample on their right to free speech so that you and I have a similar right to express ourselves. It's a hard balancing act and I don't envy the folks who maintain it. out and out slander and libel is hard to prove for similar reasons. Deliberate intent to smear one's reputation for malicious intent is needed to make it stick. this is why tabloids get away with what they do. Christ look at the Prince William and Kate Middleton fiasco.
The thing is about people who believe other's bullshit is that they were inclined to believe it before anyone else expressed it. They simply got their validation from an outside source. That's what frightens me most about the mindset of the average US citizen. Hate mongers like Lou Dobbs, Glenn Beck and whatever the hell that other mouthpiece on Fox whose name has fallen out of my skull have massive followings. This is to say nothing of Al Sharpton and a few others on the other side. Millions of supposed adults take their validation from these hate merchants and run with it. Be nice if they would crack a book and read every now and again.
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 28, 2012 15:34:38 GMT 1
I'm very, very big on freedom of speech. That's not exactly what I meant - I was actually thinking of how repulsed I am by the Republicans, and how Republicans (Tories over here) feel the same about me.
For some reason my attitude to bigots, crazies and wild jackasses like those you mention (i.e. those that the majority dislike - if not as large a majority ad you'd hope) is different, and Im easier with it. I don't know what's going on there.
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Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Sept 28, 2012 15:56:52 GMT 1
Buch, you should see the crap I took in California whenever I left base in uniform. Just because I'm military, I've been called many unsavory things (to put it delicately) to include "baby killer" "war criminal", etc. Not to mention how quickly people with different political views than I do throw the race card at me. Point out that the President spends more time getting spots on TV than actually leading the country? I'm racist. Point out that government regulations are driving up the costs of health care? I'm racist. Point out that there are more people on welfare (excluding retired seniors and people with genuine medical disablities, mind you)? I'm racist. Official unemployment numbers (as in people actively seeking or receiving unemployment benefits which can last up to 99 months last I checked) have been over 8% throughout the last 3.5 years? I'm racist.
Now I have acknowledged there are idiots on both sides. O'Reilley, Beck, Sharpton, Cooper, Blitzer, Maddow, pretty much the majority of the talking heads on MSNBC, Fox News, and CNN. That said, if you ignore the rhetoric and commentary and just focus on what's being reported, Fox and CNN do have some good info (which I can verify through alternative sources as far as actual substance goes). Problem is it gets lost in the spin and most people don't have the patience to sift through it.
The problem stems from something simple: people as a whole are not held accountable for their actions. Everyone is a "precious little snowflake who is delicate and sensitive" not to mention few people these days have any kind of critical thinking skills and they're more worried about American Idol than what's actually going on. It's eerily reminescent of "A Brave New World" by Aldorus Huxley.
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Post by Cali on Sept 28, 2012 16:06:45 GMT 1
God fucking dammit. People are still saying that shit? The Viet-fuckin'-nam war ended going on half a century ago, for Chrissake. When are these types going to realize those in the military aren't bloodthirsty murderers and imperial freakin' stormtroopers.
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 28, 2012 16:16:07 GMT 1
Harassing people for being military - I don't like that at all. I'm very pacifist, very diplomatic, immensely suspiscious of militaries and servicemen's reasons for signing up. But the US army is a good thing, damn it. Every decent soldier is at the very least brave, and almost none of them are 'baby killers' or criminals. It's outrageous to make assumptions like that based on such small information as a uniform. As you say, both sides have their knee-jerk, prejudiced idiots, and every one of us has our stupid moments.
The precious snowflake thing: I'd kinda agree there too, that personal accountability is very low these days, and it's a problem. Seems like the more freedom we get, the less bull we have to face, the less we have to fight -- the less grown-up we become.
Or maybe it's more to do with the culture of selfishness that the US has done so well with and spread so far in the world, hm? People are so used to sticking up for their OWN rights that they forgot to give a damn about other people. That's another way of looking at it. The attitude lately is perhaps not so much unaccountable, but aggressive: 'Why should you allow for others' opinions, rights, or give them any quarter? That's their job.' It's un-American, uncompetitive.
No problem stems from something as simple as what you say.
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 28, 2012 16:22:00 GMT 1
God fucking dammit. People are still saying that shit? The Viet-fuckin'-nam war ended going on half a century ago, for Chrissake. When are these types going to realize those in the military aren't bloodthirsty murderers and imperial freakin' stormtroopers. Those torturers in the Iraq war. That stirred it up again. Plus - half a century isn't so long, considering some of the stuff we're talking about in the Vietnam war. The thing about the military - even a good one like ours or the US's - is that sometimes the structure of it causes war crimes. Uniforms and efficiency breed obedience, and if the guy at the top decides to torture a prisoner, maybe it'll happen. Strong obedience sometimes goes too far and becomes more important to a man than humanity. This is a problem - not one I have any solution for - and it will lead people to unjustly tarnish the uniform. And did you ever see that one Michael Moore film where there's a soldier talking about how he likes to listen to that 'burn motherfucker burn' song while he fights in civilian areas, which he finds hilarious? Yeah. War and armies breed dispicable behaviour as well as heroes. People like me are always on the lookout for it. And unfair people like me take that lookout too far. So that kind of attitude - hating good uniforms - it's pathetic and stupid and cruel... but you have to see the reasons. When you see a soldier smiling for a photo while he tortures a guy for fun, it sticks with you.
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 28, 2012 16:24:04 GMT 1
Three posts! Somebody smite me, for God's sake.
Which branch are you with, Iron? I don't know much about this. And what made you sign up? Just out of curiosity, not trying to start a personal fight.
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Post by Cali on Sept 28, 2012 17:09:47 GMT 1
He's in the United States Air Force, which makes it even more stupid that people would call him a "baby killer". The assumption would have been slightly more educated if he wore the patch and 'Scarlet Beret' of the CCT or something, but those types wouldn't know the difference. Iron has a desk job, so it might be safe to assume he's never killed anyone. And I think he signed up because of 9/11 (sorry Iron, didn't mean to answer for you).
And yes. Unfortunately, the "kill-em-all, let-God-sort-em-out" psycho types in the military have been kind of ruining it. Some people simply sign up just because they want to kill people. It's sickening. Thankfully, they only constitute a very small portion of American GIs.
Speaking of which, I thought about joining the United States army as a combat engineer, but I'm unfit for service due to about three reasons. Those being the fact that I have erroneously misshapen feet, the fact that I'm damn near legally blind, and that I have asperger's syndrome.
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Post by jklinders on Sept 28, 2012 17:20:45 GMT 1
Then on the other side of the sliding scale we have the "pay for my education but don't you dare call me up to fight" types that have been flocking to Canada since 2003. Those folks made an oath and are leaving their comrades in arms to go into the meat grinder.
My dad was infantry. I am very glad he did not live to see how disgracefully folks in uniform are treated now. He may have gone off his nut. Also some high profile breaches of discipline that have made the news up here would have upset him as well. It goes both ways really.
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 28, 2012 17:37:38 GMT 1
It goes both ways really. Everything does.
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Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Sept 28, 2012 18:22:21 GMT 1
He's in the United States Air Force, which makes it even more stupid that people would call him a "baby killer". The assumption would have been slightly more educated if he wore the patch and 'Scarlet Beret' of the CCT or something, but those types wouldn't know the difference. Iron has a desk job, so it might be safe to assume he's never killed anyone. And I think he signed up because of 9/11 (sorry Iron, didn't mean to answer for you). And yes. Unfortunately, the "kill-em-all, let-God-sort-em-out" psycho types in the military have been kind of ruining it. Some people simply sign up just because they want to kill people. It's sickening. Thankfully, they only constitute a very small portion of American GIs. Speaking of which, I thought about joining the United States army as a combat engineer, but I'm unfit for service due to about three reasons. Those being the fact that I have erroneously misshapen feet, the fact that I'm damn near legally blind, and that I have asperger's syndrome. You're right in that I havn't killed anyone and I do indeed "fly a desk" to use the popular euphamism. That said, I can still deploy and find myself working an armed patrol if needed. And I did indeed join because of 9/11: I wanted to help track and hunt down those who think it's ok to slaughter innocents/non-combatants by the thousands just because we follow a different religion/political view/whatever. The "war criminal" bit happened pretty recently on the annerversary of the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (I'm part of STRATCOM, which deals with our nuclear arsenal among other things) Like it or not, our job, ultimately, is to kill bad guys which draws some serious outliers from time to time. The majority of us don't like war since we're the ones who bleed and die, but we also recognize it's necessity when the possible alternatives are worse and diplomacy isn't working.
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Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Sept 28, 2012 18:29:51 GMT 1
God fucking dammit. People are still saying that shit? The Viet-fuckin'-nam war ended going on half a century ago, for Chrissake. When are these types going to realize those in the military aren't bloodthirsty murderers and imperial freakin' stormtroopers. Those torturers in the Iraq war. That stirred it up again. Plus - half a century isn't so long, considering some of the stuff we're talking about in the Vietnam war. The thing about the military - even a good one like ours or the US's - is that sometimes the structure of it causes war crimes. Uniforms and efficiency breed obedience, and if the guy at the top decides to torture a prisoner, maybe it'll happen. Strong obedience sometimes goes too far and becomes more important to a man than humanity. This is a problem - not one I have any solution for - and it will lead people to unjustly tarnish the uniform. And did you ever see that one Michael Moore film where there's a soldier talking about how he likes to listen to that 'burn motherfucker burn' song while he fights in civilian areas, which he finds hilarious? Yeah. War and armies breed dispicable behaviour as well as heroes. People like me are always on the lookout for it. And unfair people like me take that lookout too far. So that kind of attitude - hating good uniforms - it's pathetic and stupid and cruel... but you have to see the reasons. When you see a soldier smiling for a photo while he tortures a guy for fun, it sticks with you. Michael Moore is full of shit, more so than Bill O'Reilly. All he does is stir shit up and acts all like he's the one bringing truth to everyone. But I've seen people call him on his bullshit to his face and he deliberately launched into personal attacks on said person instead of backing up his claims. You also don't hear about the everyday little things that happen, or not so little. I personally know a Marine Infantry grunt who ran into a burning building to save several Iraqi children. Never got any air time on the news. Recently a soldier got crushed under an armored vehicle because he dove in front of the vehicle to save a small child who ran in front of a convoy. His story got maybe 3 minutes of air time, tops. The Abu Ghraib scandal was a serious outlier and is the exception rather than the norm. You should see what happens in a typical middle-eastern country on a daily basis. Al-asad in Syria? Pretty much business as usual albiet on a much larger scale.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Sept 28, 2012 18:47:11 GMT 1
I find it absolutely appalling and disgusting that people would say bad things about the good military people who are putting their lives on the line to defend our countries - I am referring to both the US Military and the Canadian Military. These soldiers, Infantry, Air Force, Marines, whatever they happen to be, are doing incredibly dangerous jobs and in a lot of cases are dying to defend American and Canadian rights.
I saw an anecdote online once about a soldier who said, after being called bad names for being in the military, "I am putting my life on the line every day when I am deployed overseas to defend your right to say those things about me. Think about that." I am paraphrasing because I can't remember exactly what he'd said, but it was pretty much that idea. And I agree... these brave men and women do NOT deserve to be trash-talked and harassed, they deserve respect and gratitude for what they are doing.
I have various cousins in the Canadian military - two of them, a brother and sister, are in the Royal Canadian Navy, and a third is no longer active in the military after being severely injured and nearly dying in Afghanistan approximately 6 years ago - he's still suffering physical issues and PTSD from the accident that nearly killed him (his armored vehicle flipped into a minefield from what I was told). I hate to admit I am not 100% certain what his position in the Military was - he went to Afghanistan, that's all anyone told me about what he was...
It sickens me that the Military people get harassed and badmouthed, when I know just how dangerous their jobs are, and came so close to losing my cousin. I do consider it a miracle that he survived, and I am not normally a very religious person...
It also sickens me that there are a few "bad apples", so to speak, in the Military - and it's these few rotten ones that ruin it for the rest of the good men and women who are only trying to do the right thing. But, I think the loudmouths who bad-mouth the Military need to realise that a few bad people does not dictate the norm.
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