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Post by Tillian Panthesis on May 7, 2009 14:07:46 GMT 1
No, we're not here to discuss juvenile arguments of "Good vs Bad". I had enough of those arguments for one day especially some kid that shall not be named started arguments in a crusader zealot fashion in the ME forums. What I want to talk about is the grey areas of the Paragon and Renegade choices because that kid really ticks me off about his zealotry about preaching to be pure, clean, good and free of sins, blah, blah blah.
While Paragon represent the idealism of the scale and Renegade represent Cynical philosophies, the morality meter didn't add or subtract one and another hence the idea of "Good vs Evil" faded away. Hence when RP as Shepard, you are free to pick any choices you want when dealing with situation. (if you have enough points Charm or imitation that is.) Recently that kid steps into the forums and bashes about how all the Paragon choices is the right thing to do. I object that statement and this was result in one of my arguments in the forums:
Someone once said, "Good intentions paved a pathway to hell."
I believe the paragon choices do lead problems in the future, especially with the Queen Rachni or letting Balak go to save the hostages.
Even if you pick the choice to let Balak go to save the hostages, Katie even question you about it, at that time it sounded like she's sort of willingly to sacrifice herself and the others for the sake of the Galaxy. Hence it's hinting itself that paragon choices can be problematic in the long run if you do not foresee the consequences ahead.
Even though I role play my Shepard as a hot-blooded paragon marine who decided to let Balak go, I have some doubts at the back of my head. Even she's on his tail, I suspect he'll cause more havoc and harm before she can catch him up and eliminate him. So I suspect my intentions to save the miners might be causing some harm in the long run, the safety of the Galaxy is compromised. (before you ask why I'm doing this, for research purpose, I've decided to experiment with two Shepards, both Paragon but differnt critical choices, which they are on my Hard Drive atm.)
What I can see with Paragon and Renegade, they represent the spectrum of:
Paragon = Idealism
Renegade = Cynical
Learning to the extreme, zealot side can cause harm in the long run. Even Idealism has good intentions but might hurt someone in the long run. Same goes to Cynical PoV.
Bottom line, Paragon and Renegade choices are blurring itself into a grey area of choices. Renegade might be cruel and harsh but there are times you have to make that decision if you want to protect citadel space while the Paragon options in the long run might compromise the safety of the galaxy. So in ME, we're no longer looking at the picture in black and white terms.
I'm aware that most of the renegade choices are juvenile at best and the Mock Effect parody did point that out well but still I like to hear about everyone's opinion about idea of grey terms and maybe the dangers of going to extreme side.
For now I'm going to sulk into that corner at the idea of someone going blind sighted at not looking at the big picture
/sulk
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Post by Mister Buch on May 8, 2009 7:58:14 GMT 1
Well I'm an idealistic sort of guy, so I really enjoyed that I was able to play Shepard the same way. Although that said, I did have her take a few renegade choices here and there. The character I was going for was 'idealist badass' - not sure such a thing exists in real life but she was cool.
That's a good point about paragon choices leading to bad repercussions. I guess that's why it's called idealism - it's an attempt towards the ideal rather than achieving it. It's realistic in that way - Shepard can't just solve all the planet's problems in one stroke like say, Darth Revan could. Even if she makes the 'right' choice horrible things might happen and she has to live with it.
As for letting Balak go - that was one of my favourite moments in the game. I really didn't see it coming and I felt absolutely winded by the guy. I let him go because I wasn't willing to sacrifice lives just to bring in one man. There's no guaruntee that he will do worse crimes later, or before he is found. But I still felt like he had won - and that is fantastic storytelling for a videogame.
Those moments are where Mass Effect shines - the impossible decisions. Even in the masterpiece that was KotOR every decision was either good or evil. In Mass effect you get Balak, the two decisions on Virmire and of course, whether or not to save the Council at the cost of many human lives. Every one of those decisions is deliberately non-heroic and complex. And it makes choosing very hard. I love that aspect of the game.
When I play the game, usually I just react to all the choices how I would myself. If I were more of a badass. And a woman.
As for the Rachni Queen decision, that rather annoys me. Your choices are either 'risk a galactic war by releasing an asexually-reproducing killing machine' or 'murder an innocent prisoner'. I let her go as the lesser of two evils, but why can't you leave her where she is and call in C-Sec?
And if you read my parody, you know how I feel about a lot of the renegade choices. Paragon = idealist. Renegade = teenager/war criminal.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on May 9, 2009 4:39:42 GMT 1
Idealist badass... hmmm. Well it can exist in fiction that's for sure. At least bioware gave us the option to be a paragon badass/prick. That way it made the game more interesting. I have to agree about the renegade choices after I've seen that youtube clip that posted one time, the one that called "Shepard is a Jerk". I hope that BioWare fixed the renegade choices in ME2. So far it feels more like a juvenile spoiled little brat than an anti hero with a mix complex moralities or so. Still I do enjoy having a juvenile moments, especially when disconnecting the comm. from the council. That was my favourite moments, especially this one. Turian: How many generations before they over run the galaxy?
Shepard: Uhh... Three. No! Four!
Turian:... This is no joke commander, the rachni are once the greatest threats in the galaxy...
Shepard: Whoops!
Joker: Annnd... we're out!And also there's one other hard choice that I had to pick the other day that is not bordered on black and white terms... Should I pick Liara or Kaiden. And no, you can't have both...
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Post by daigowedd on May 14, 2009 18:06:25 GMT 1
The enjoyment I got out of the game was being the biggest jerk that ever jerked, playing renegade infiltrator was hilarious.
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Post by Knightfall on May 15, 2009 2:21:39 GMT 1
Dooming the Citadel Counsel to die was probably the most rewarding decision of the game to me. Heck, it was hardly a decision. Joker was halfway through posing the question to me when I cut him off and said, F**k 'em. And, to be perfectly serious here, I can argue that letting the Counsel die would probably only BENEFIT the galaxy in the long run. After all, the only reason Shepard was forced to go solo and steal her own ship was on account of the Counsel's silly intervention. They were nearly unwilling to give Shepard the benefit of the doubt for the most part during her entire campaign, and when push came to shove, they disregarded her most important piece of factual intelligence...which showed no intelligence on their part. Such blatant disregard and the outright arrogance of hardly looking in to the matter shows faulty, and perhaps even biased, leadership ability. And even if I had saved them from that severe case of space-explosion, chances are good that their ways probably wouldn't have been swayed THAT much. Even with Anderson on the Counsel. But! With Anderson at the head of a newly reformed Counsel, the galaxy would have seen much more progression than they would have seen otherwise with Larry, Curly and Moe getting involved with things. With an outcome like that, I'd hardly call it evil. I'm almost hesitant to call it renegade. But sometimes renegade acts are useful in breaking down the old and building up with the new. Yes We Can.
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Post by Mister Buch on May 15, 2009 12:35:37 GMT 1
I wouldn't call it evil either - but it's still letting the hostages die in order to save your own men.
And yes, the Council made a series of lousy decisions regarding Shepard and the hunt for Saren, but that shouldn't condemn them to death. Presumably they do a decent job of ruling the galaxy (though I think the Council should be much bigger and have numerous representatives from all species who are governed by it) so I would assume this particular batch of terrible moves are a rarity.
Now I was a bit disappointed with that decision at the end because it was TOO gray - I never feel like I've done the right thing and so I'm never pleased with myself at the end. There should be a big, dramatic move in both directions that demonstrates the philosophy you've gone with.
So saving the Council isn't great, but I prefer it to letting them die. It certainly shouldn't be out of spite. We're talking about (imaginary) people's lives! And the renegade ending, where Udina takes over the damn government, is creeeepy.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on May 15, 2009 17:05:42 GMT 1
Ah stuff it, I miss you guys already. I'll post something here then I'll won't be working on my Fan fic still for a while though.
The ending is a bit of a mix bag, I have to agree but I suspect BioWare intended to do that to create some sort of opening for the sequel, that's why the ending is kinda weak as a diluted beer.
I did kill of the council a few times on my xbox version but I've only chose it because realisticly, it's about saving your butt at the last minute even that means scarifcing the coucil in a millitary PoV. As for the counter arguement about causing a decentrlising with leadership, that will be another day due to the fact my brain is fried again.
And btw, damn you Mr. Buch! you mention about the Renegade choices, so now I feel tempted to make another Shepard, this time a real bitch that everyone hates her even her crew members. Due to ME2 is about the consenqunces of your choices, I want to see what happens if you go renegade with balls to the walls as opposed to a lovable cranky paragon Shepard that is currently my main.
Now, I'm going to figure out what sort of of a cold heart Shepard woman would look like, proberly from a certain well known *cough cough* writer...
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Post by Mister Buch on May 15, 2009 23:14:39 GMT 1
Moi? Sounds good about the jackass Shepard - would be fun. Me, I couldn't bring myself to do that. I just can't play as the baddie - except in KotOR, which I played in every concievable way. I don't get the cough-cough-writer thing though! What do you mean?
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on May 16, 2009 2:22:40 GMT 1
Well yeah, you Mr. Buch. You've inspired me to go a more bitchy path in ME1 in my next playthrough after I've fine tuned my favourite Paragon Shepard for ME2:
And the renegade ending, where Udina takes over the damn government, is creeeepy. I have to admit I have a bit of trouble of playing a Jerkass in ME1 because of my prefered nature to play nice to other people. That's why when I'm doing my Renegade Shepard, I'll have to model it off from someone I really, really find them facken annoying in rl.
As for that author, well it's that damn author who wrote for the Twilight series Stepahine Meyer, she's a really vain bitch I'll yell ya. There's a self insert that is blantly based on her stright on. Really irritating if you ask me. So yeah I'm modeling my Renegade Shepard from her so it will be less painful and in case her bitchy deeds do caught up to her, well I'll won't crying over her for sure.... unlike my Paragon Shepard, I've kinda got attached to her too much for my liking on the other hand...
Funny enough how you couldn't figure out *cough cough* part was Ms. Meyer. That's a good sign, really. That means Ms. Meyer isn't worth a piece of metal scrap from the Normandy. She thinks that she absolutely famous as a superstar but judging from you Mr. Buch, that's not the case. Anyways, thanks for putting my faith back into humanity, that really made my week.
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Post by Mister Buch on May 16, 2009 4:48:36 GMT 1
Oh right, the Twilight lady. She's unpopular around here!
I'm happy to tell you I didn't know her name. This is my entire experience with her and her books- - Saw the trailer for the Twilight movie. - Was irritated by how bad it was - just from the trailer I could tell it was dreadful. - Ignored various idiot friends who enthused about it.
I'm hoping the whole thing will go away. I am told that the books are doing well though. Cashing in with the Harry Potter crowd.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on May 16, 2009 19:15:10 GMT 1
Don't worry, the Twilight series will be listed under tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeaderThanDisco a few years later. I'll try not to mention that word again due to the fact everytime I've said twilight, a twilight fan kicks a kitten into a glass window. (Oh god! that's three kittens already ) I don't know about the series being milked with HP fans. I see a lot of haters are from the HP factions -_- Sad part is I used to enjoy HP for a while before I've stumbled across the His Dark materials trilogy when I was a airheaded teen. Since then I've never looked back. Currently I'm trying to shrug off the hype by playing more games and reading the Hitchhiker Guide's to the Galaxy to ease off the corporal depression. first this, then Shepard and now the Normandy. What's next? Anyways back to the topic, you know the funny thing about Me and other normal RPGS that I feel bad if I've acted like a bitch towards the NPCs yet in games like WoW, I've tend to be abusive and a griefer at times like one time I've camped this poor sod and everytime he reserect, I've killed him over and over again with ease due to the fact his HP is not full. Also not counting the times I've used to trade vulgar insults with other players especially with those who tend to be bad players that tend to ruin my playtime by ruining a dungeon run. (Then again that's proberly why I'm glad I've quit, as I'm kinda worried I'll become a nasty, grouchy bitch if I don't stand back, relax while reminding myself, "it's just a game") So yeah, feeling bad if I made Liara cry yet with real life players, I've tend to be psychotic at best...
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Post by Mister Buch on May 16, 2009 23:08:54 GMT 1
Ah real people are all bastards. Liara is just lovely.
I love this idea of kittens being kicked into windows. Twilight twilight twilight twilight twilight twilight. I am more of a dog person.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on May 17, 2009 3:37:51 GMT 1
*Mr. Buch gets 8 Renegade points*
So who's the renegade now? 6 kittens being carked for a sorry excuse for a vampire series? To be honest, I like both dogs and cats... as long they don't crew my computer cords, peeing at the visitors feet (unless it's someone I don't like) etc, etc.
Still despite that, your sadistic black humour amuses me so...
*Mr. Buch gets 9 Paragon Points*
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on May 24, 2009 7:34:33 GMT 1
Interestingly that in ME2 you get an extra ending if you go to the extreme Paragon or Renegade according to the OXM. That should be fun!
So any thoughts on that?
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Post by Mister Buch on May 24, 2009 17:23:06 GMT 1
Good idea. Means I will have a reason to play through multiple times. More variety for me.
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