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Post by Battlechantress on Oct 24, 2012 12:40:48 GMT 1
Here's another idiot trying to make my head explode: "God intended pregnancies from rape" says a village idiot who should stick to talking about corn (it's all Indiana has, really) Edit: I'm just... going to leave it at that.
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Post by Clint Johnston on Oct 24, 2012 13:37:03 GMT 1
This guy said it wrong, but I agree that abortion in the case of rape is wrong. Did the baby attack the victim? It's like rounding up a guy's kids because he shot a cop. Hate wrongly attributed. However, because the topic is such an emotional subject, I don't think it'll ever be legally resolved.
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Post by jklinders on Oct 24, 2012 14:27:56 GMT 1
I'm just going to drop a reminder that the issue is at least as much around women's reproductive rights as it is about the legal status of a fetus.
Men cannot have their reproductive rights stripped away in the way that women can through rape. It is life altering. It gets magnified worse in parts of the US where the rapist can insist on custody rights to further torment and harass his victim. It needs to fucking stop.
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Post by Warhammer Gorvar on Oct 24, 2012 16:01:09 GMT 1
Love the pun at the end there Linders.
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Post by jklinders on Oct 24, 2012 16:06:07 GMT 1
Totally unintentional I assure you. Seriously, until you pointed it out, I never saw it.
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Post by Warhammer Gorvar on Oct 24, 2012 16:12:18 GMT 1
You know me, when everyone gets serious and controversial....I throw in dinosaurs and lame puns.
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Post by jklinders on Oct 24, 2012 16:27:21 GMT 1
A much needed service indeed. KArma for you
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Post by Mister Buch on Oct 24, 2012 19:42:31 GMT 1
Abortion, huh. I'm in favour. Moving on.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Oct 24, 2012 23:44:16 GMT 1
I would rather not get into it, because I do believe this topic has been hashed over repeatedly and distressingly to the point of making me break down and cry many times before, but I just can't help it. I will only say this - abortion in the case of rape is NOT 'punishing' a child who does not technically exist yet, it is about protecting the woman - the rape victim who was violated in the worst possible way - from psychological and probable physical harm. I can't coherently express just how infuriated I get when that old bullshit about 'punishing' the child comes up - or how much I want to go on a violent rampage when I hear about a woman's rights and emotional safety being threatened. To anyone who would say that the woman - the innocent rape victim - should just 'suck it up' and carry the pregnancy to term ( when she did not intend to be pregnant in the first place - and seriously, how can you not see that pregnancy is a goddamned life altering thing??) I say this: what if it was your sister? Or a female friend you care deeply about? Or your girlfriend / wife? Or if you're old enough to be a father, what if it was (gods forbid) your daughter? May all the gods above and below forgive me for getting so direct here, but I felt it needed to be said. And no man will ever truly understand just how tenuous a woman's hold on her own values are in this world when a woman's body is a political thing and her rights to her own body are taken forcibly away from her. Let me flip this around - what if a man was raped, by a woman, and yes it IS possible. The female rapist gets pregnant, and then when baby is born, she starts going after her male victim for child support, and his wages start getting garnished? Should the man's life be turned completely upside down because someone else made a baby using his biology without his permission? Should the children he might already have, the family he might already have, be financially punished for something that was not his fault, and was actually an emotionally upsetting violation of his body? Think on that, will you? EDIT: Corrected a spelling error - bad bad me...
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Post by Nord Ronnoc on Oct 25, 2012 0:34:15 GMT 1
I would rather not get into it, because I do believe this topic has been hashed over repeatedly and distressingly to the point of making me break down and cry many times before, but I just can't help it. I will only say this - abortion in the case of rape is NOT 'punishing' a child who does not technically exist yet, it is about protecting the woman - the rape victim who was violated in the worst possible way - from phychological and probable physical harm. I can't coherently express just how infuriated I get when that old bullshit about 'punishing' the child comes up - or how much I want to go on a violent rampage when I hear about a woman's rights and emotional safety being threatened. To anyone who would say that the woman - the innocent rape victim - should just 'suck it up' and carry the pregnancy to term ( when she did not intend to be pregnant in the first place - and seriously, how can you not see that pregnancy is a goddamned life altering thing??) I say this: what if it was your sister? Or a female friend you care deeply about? Or your girlfriend / wife? Or if you're old enough to be a father, what if it was (gods forbid) your daughter? May all the gods above and below forgive me for getting so direct here, but I felt it needed to be said. And no man will ever truly understand just how tenuous a woman's hold on her own values are in this world when a woman's body is a political thing and her rights to her own body are taken forcibly away from her. Let me flip this around - what if a man was raped, by a woman, and yes it IS possible. The female rapist gets pregnant, and then when baby is born, she starts going after her male victim for child support, and his wages start getting garnished? Should the man's life be turned completely upside down because someone else made a baby using his biology without his permission? Should the children he might already have, the family he might already have, be financially punished for something that was not his fault, and was actually an emotionally upsetting violation of his body? Think on that, will you? Well said! You just gained a lot of respect from me for that. Here's that extra karma point, just for you!
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Post by Battlechantress on Oct 25, 2012 3:10:19 GMT 1
Agreeing with Lily wholeheartedly, and I'll add: those who say such things about rape and pregnancies have two things in common: they have never been raped (thankfully), and they all have penises.
That's been eating at me all day since I saw a certain post, and that's the nicest way I can put it right now. Maybe it has something to do with working 72 hours in four days, but I doubt it.
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Post by Mr. Glow on Oct 25, 2012 3:36:31 GMT 1
Did y'all not see the words "Moving on?
Smooth.
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Post by Cali on Oct 25, 2012 4:11:37 GMT 1
Did y'all not see the words "Moving on? Smooth. I respond to the term, "Sailin' On".
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Post by Clint Johnston on Oct 25, 2012 5:39:46 GMT 1
I will only say this - abortion in the case of rape is NOT 'punishing' a child who does not technically exist yet, it is about protecting the woman - the rape victim who was violated in the worst possible way - from psychological and probable physical harm. I don't think you're thinking clearly here. Pregnancy is not detected right away. Therefore a child is being killed approximately 2 months later. That is not a heat of the moment decision or a conclusion to a difficult experience. That is an actual choice to terminate the pregnancy. At no point did I say "Suck it up" or that it was not life altering. It most certainly is. Would I be happy at the situation if it was someone close to me? No. Would I be sorely tempted to lash out in anger at the person responsible? Yes. Would I advocate killing a child? NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT. NOT IF IT WAS MY OWN DAUGHTER. I would not force her to keep it, obviously, but I would not support the decision to abort. Non sequitur. It does not follow. You're assuming A) that the rapist will be impregnated. B) that she will force a connection with the father. C) That the legal system will recognize her claim D) The victim will have created another family in the meantime. Look, I get that this is an emotional issue. But emotions do not give us license to do away with clear thought. If someone shoots me and in my rage and fear I shoot someone else by mistake, I do not get a free pass. I don't think you and Battlechantress are being fair and thinking through the whole issue at all. It's as if you see red on the mention of the act and charge around furiously until we drop the topic. Come to think of it, that seems to be the overall national political strategy regarding this topic. Well I refuse to play that game. Rape is wrong, but so is murder. Two wrongs don't make a right, regardless of how emotionally damaging they are. P.S. "Moving on" is fine by me, but I wanted it clear what I was advocating.
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Post by jklinders on Oct 25, 2012 10:01:56 GMT 1
Clint.
You are still completely dodging the issue at hand which is female reproductive rights and how men do not have their lives altered by this shit in the same way women do. You might not be actually saying the words that a woman should just suck it up and carry on, but guess what? That is exactly what you mean. Because wishing the option to abort wasn't there is wishing for women to do just that. There is no difference whether you actually say the words or not. What about those parts of the US where it is illegal to abort but the rapist has the option to sue for custody of the child?
All of this inexorably points to one fact. There is a significant portion of the population that insists that women should not have a say here. I will not abide by that as long as there is breath in my body.
There has been as much common ground on this issue as will ever be expressed in this forum. Moving on.
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