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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Oct 25, 2012 10:24:42 GMT 1
I will only say this - abortion in the case of rape is NOT 'punishing' a child who does not technically exist yet, it is about protecting the woman - the rape victim who was violated in the worst possible way - from psychological and probable physical harm. I don't think you're thinking clearly here. Pregnancy is not detected right away. Therefore a child is being killed approximately 2 months later. That is not a heat of the moment decision or a conclusion to a difficult experience. That is an actual choice to terminate the pregnancy. Pregnancy may not be detected right away, if the woman is having concensual sex with her partner and is not planning ot checking or testing for such. A woman who has just been raped, however, would probably find herself in the hospital within a few days to one week after the attack, even if she did not go immediately after the same day or night, and I have done the research and pregnancy can actually be detected before the woman has even missed her first following period after the attack. That is LESS THAN ONE MONTH. But that is exactly what you mean by what you are saying. Then I desperately hope you never have to deal with the emotional backlash of a loved one who has been raped. I would not wish that on anyone. In order of your 'points': (A) A man who rapes a woman might not be planning to make her pregnant, just as a woman who rapes a man might not be planning to get pregnant by him. It can still happen. (B) Male rapists in the US have already been known to force connections with their victim and child if the woman chose to keep the baby. That has already been hashed out in the media. Which leads to: (C) What's to stop a female rapist from doing the same if she happens to be pregnant from raping the guy? Money is involved this time, and she wants it. The law is apparently on the rapists' side in certain states in the US, as opposed to the victim - how effin' backwards is that??? And (D) I was not talking about meantime, I was talking about a family he might ALREADY have. Regardless. It is the same thing. And in both gendered examples, the victim is being further victimized after the fact by being forced to either carry to term a nine-month health risk, and suffer extreme emotional and physical pain, or if it was the male victim, being forced to suffer financially for the resulting child. It is the same thing, hitting both genders where it hurts the most. And lastly, it is not murder. Your other example of shooting someone different in response to being shot is not the same thing. The someone else you might shoot is in no way connected to your physical health and safety the way a pregnancy is. And finally, it all boils down to women's rights. If men have the right to choose what they do with their bodies, then so should women. End of discussion.
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Post by jklinders on Oct 25, 2012 10:43:52 GMT 1
I just saw this part of your post more clearly just now Clint
Two things.
One, part of the debate shall we call it is over terminology. You call it murder. That is a terminology that is deliberately set up to provoke an emotional response. Legally right now it isn't. A solid argument could be made for morally too as until a third trimester after which abortions are extremely rare life is not viable without support from the womb. You can't kill what's technically not alive. Recognition of your side of the argument cannot come without at least trying to understand the other side.
Second, your characterization of "chantress and Lily is so profoundly condescending that I have no choice but to call you on it and ask that you apologize. They are not "charging in like a bull until the other side drops it." The other side has yet to properly construct a reason for this lopsided conceit that women are not able to make their own decisions about their bodies.
Now I hope to God I'm done/
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Post by Mister Buch on Oct 25, 2012 11:35:57 GMT 1
I completely agree with Linders. Well said, all round.
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Post by Clint Johnston on Oct 25, 2012 17:35:54 GMT 1
You are still completely dodging the issue at hand which is female reproductive rights and how men do not have their lives altered by this shit in the same way women do. OK let's address that. It forces a woman to go through 9 months of physical pain and agonizing labor (or invasive operation). Not to mention the psychological issues woven in. Men will never have to endure that directly. I think our difference is in the term "murder." I say abortion is. You say it is not. That term answers the entire question. (more on this where you address it later) That is wrong. Should be repealed. I did not know this. That would increase the trauma of the decision, but by no means lessens the importance of the decision itself. Perhaps you see it that way, but I'm not using it in a condemnatory way. AKA "it is your fault and you must endure the consequences" I am more on the lines of "We must do the best that we can with the time that is given to us" To me the best does not include sacrificing a child to my psyche. I desperately hope the same. But that doesn't change what is the right thing to do. A) Unlikely. Rape is predominantly about power, as any psychologist (or is it psychiatrist?) can tell you. Possible, but not common. The rapist has his or her power verified, and moves on. B) The Media is full of itself, and fully understands the concept "if it bleeds, it leads" Meaning that although something is more random that Methuselah's baby pictures, if it will get people to turn on the news at 6, we hash it out. The Maury show is the same idea. C) I think in rare cases a rapist may pursue such control, but the percentage is negligible and this still does not answer our main question: Is Abortion murder? If not, then there is no issue. If so, then our actions are more serious. D) Fair enough. What it boils down to is "what is murder?" The definition is: the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. What is a human being? any individual of the genus Homo, especially a member of the species Homo sapiens. Legal terminology will offer loopholes for abortion, but those two definitions are pretty much the basis of my position, save for "Thou shalt not kill" But that might not be enough for some people so I'll provide more. www.life123.com/parenting/pregnancy/pregnancy-stages/pregnancy-timeline.shtml At no point is that child not growing. So I say it's very much the same thing as shooting someone by accident in the heat of the moment. Psychologically and physically injured, the victim makes a decision that ends the life of another human being. Do men get to say they want the child aborted if they don't want it and the woman does? It's half their body, after all. Their DNA, their face. Also, please stop "Ending the discussion" without offering a chance for rebuttal. It's not a discussion if you keep closing it off before the other person speaks. I believe I've addressed where I stand on your first point. Allow me to point out that were the baby "planned" that we'd express disappointment and sorrow for the mother at any stage of miscarriage. But if it is "unplanned" it's OK to force a miscarriage up until the 3rd trimester? How moral is that? Second: I don't believe any apology is due them save my continuing honesty and fervent hope that this will remain thoroughly theoretical. Rape is an emotional topic, and I understand why many people react emotionally to it. But because something is emotional does not allow us to freak out and then drop the topic. This is a poor response and were it a less political issue, the attitude of "it's my body, so shut up" would be seen as rather ridiculous.
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Post by Mister Buch on Oct 25, 2012 18:27:12 GMT 1
Much as I would like to strangle Clint right now, please keep it civil, people.
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Post by Warhammer Gorvar on Oct 25, 2012 18:42:47 GMT 1
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Post by jklinders on Oct 25, 2012 19:49:22 GMT 1
Clint, you made a direct personal attack about the state of mind of 2 forum members who did not directly attack you. That if nothing else merits an apology.
This is pretty easy to understand.
As for the rest you still are avoiding the issue of reproductive rights for women. You pretended to answer it but you skipped over the fundamental part that men simply are not impacted by it in the same way as women. Period and ever. When men can get pregnant give birth and have their lives and hormones twisted around by the actions of third party with or without consent maybe I'll drop it. But until you actually make an honest effort at answering that point I have nothing further to discuss with you on this issue.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Oct 25, 2012 22:38:15 GMT 1
I'm just going to back off this topic now. I've stated my points, and it's pretty clear that logical discussion cannot make a person change his misogynistic prejudice.
It's clear that he has no regard for women at all, if he can just assume that, as women, 'Chantress and I are simply being over-emotional and therefore cannot think clearly. I am of the belief that she and I stated things a hell of a lot more clearly than he has, as we actually made valid points. And just because we are women, that does not make our opinions less valid than those of any man. Also, the insinuation that women are over-emotional reactors as opposed to logical thinkers is a childish and insulting notion, and I cannot abide by anyone who thinks that.
I also would much rather have a discussion or a debate that involves both parties actually making valid points, rather than dancing around and avoiding the issue while simply repetitively blathering about religion and murder and making unrelated comparisons.
I am done. Completely done.
And since the term "End of Discussion" is apparently now up for debate as well, let me just say "End of MY PART of the discussion."
He may feel free to continue to display such disrespect for the female gender as a whole, I simply do not care anymore.
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Post by Clint Johnston on Oct 26, 2012 0:10:42 GMT 1
Buch - why? That I define abortion differently? That I suggested that emotions were blocking thinking? I'm not trying to cause problems, and I know we differ politically, but I like to think we're at least civil about it.
Linders - Regarding that point, I'm not saying Chantress or Lily are overly emotional in any other way or judging on anything other than this issue. Which they reacted to emotionally, and with vehemence. I am not criticizing anyone's overall state of mind.
Ignoring the reproductive rights of women. I don't think so. They still have a right to end the child's life. However, I have a right to call it what it is: murder. Whose rights are we ignoring there? That child can never peaceably assemble or speak or write for the press.
Lily - in the event that you check back on this thread or Linders passes on my reply: Where did I insinuate that "women are over-emotional reactors"? Because what I said was that the political strategy regarding this issue has been overly emotional. This implies the exact opposite, as it suggests that women of this political viewpoint have determined the best method to carry out their goals.
You assume that I'm saying this because I'm misogynistic? How elitist of you! I am not allowed to think through a hypothetical situation and come to a different conclusion? One based upon a faith that is essential to my daily life? I know many women (including a few that have been through the process of abortion) who believe that it is murder. Are they misogynistic too?
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Post by Mister Buch on Oct 26, 2012 0:16:04 GMT 1
Regarding my thing, because I find your views on abortion and rape offensive. This isn't new between us, and religious influence aside, I think some of your world-views are cruel and small-minded.
I'm glad we can be cool and sensible about it once every now and again. And while I am well and truly on Linders' side here, know that your views are as welcome on the forum as anybody's. If I disagree with you - if everybody disagrees with you - I will defend your right to say it to the death. Being moderator, death will probably not be necessary, however. Any views are welcome here, the way I see it, as long as they're serious and polite.
--
I hope this thing wraps up quickly, though. Nobody is going to convince anybody of anything, I suspect.
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Post by jklinders on Oct 26, 2012 0:31:10 GMT 1
Just re-read your posts Clint and take the blinders off if you truly did not see what you were saying about other folks.
Otherwise I am done.
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Post by herrwozzeck on Oct 26, 2012 1:51:06 GMT 1
I've tried to stay out of this discussion as much as possible. But honestly, I can't keep my mouth shut here. This is just... You may not have been specifically saying that, but you've been implying that this whole time by the tone of your replies. I'll just tell you what linders told you and tell you to reread what you said. If you reread it and still can't see that you're implying insults at Chantress or Lily, then that means we've given you too much credit on this issue. You assume that I'm saying this because I'm misogynistic? How elitist of you! I am not allowed to think through a hypothetical situation and come to a different conclusion? One based upon a faith that is essential to my daily life? My family is pro-life. They've also been devout Roman Catholics for as long as I can remember. Hell, I'm one of those people who got bitched at by my parents for daring to be atheist and who tell me I'm insane for wanting to leave my faith. So faith informs most of my family's positions. So why do I bring this up? I bring this up, because my family thinks that abortion in cases of rape/incest is acceptable and necessary despite the fact that otherwise they're generally pro-life. Their views on abortion are also informed by faith, and yet they're not the same as your views. I challenge you to do this, Clint: take your views on abortion, take away your faith, and then really examine your views. When you strip away your faith from the equation, what do you use as justification for the "no exception" rule? Think about that, and then come back to us and claim that abortion in all cases is murder. [/argument] Lindsay Ellis (who you might know better as the Nostalgia Chick) actually did a short documentary about abortion as her master's thesis. The pitch of that? "I'm going to document the perspective of a woman who has gone through abortion, since..." Well, apparently the Nostalgia Chick terminated her own pregnancy when she was in grad school. (It wasn't a case of rape in her instance, but I still think it's important because of her ultimate point.) Here, have some info and a short clip show: www.imdb.com/title/tt1833212/vimeo.com/24492987And you know what the main point of that was? Well... I'll just let her quote at the end of the doc say what needs to be said: Please do not assume that my decision was easy. If I'm regretful, don't try to convince me I did the responsible thing. If I'm self-assured, don't try to guilt me. Some might call me brave. Some might say I'm a coward. Some may even call me a murderer. But this one experience out of millions, like everyone else's, is unique, and it's mine. If there's someone we'll never know, there's a potential that's been lost, the only person who lost it is me. 'Kay? And on a side not... [An insulting comment has been redacted here by moderator 'Mister Buch'.]
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Post by Mister Buch on Oct 26, 2012 1:55:41 GMT 1
Regarding your side-note. Directly insulting other members isn't 'welcome here' either. I ask you to conduct your personal arguments and fights in private. I'm available by PM to anyone if it'll help.
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Post by Clint Johnston on Oct 26, 2012 4:06:16 GMT 1
Buch - Fair enough. Thanks for your honesty.
Linders / Lily / Chantress/ Wozzeck - I'm not the most sensitive individual. I focus on the little things and sometimes I miss the overall air I give off. So while I'm still not getting what was offensive exactly, please understand that I did not intend it to be offensive, and know I'm not attacking anyone personally on purpose. I'm not changing my views, but perhaps I could have stated them better.
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Post by Mr. Glow on Oct 26, 2012 4:40:41 GMT 1
This thread:
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