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Post by jklinders on Apr 12, 2012 23:08:30 GMT 1
Well I have a hard time buying the whole artistic integrity argument for one fundamental reason. At it's heart, art is a form of communication between the artist and the viewer. If the vast majority of the intended audience for the art misses the point that the artist was trying to make then the failure cannot be on the part of the audience. It is the artist's job to communicate their message in a way that can be understood. If a majority doesn't get it, then the artist failed, not the audience. Full stop. With a period at the end. As someone who's dealt with a lot of pretentious new music in my schooling as a composition major: This. A thousand times, this. Even Karlheinz Stockhausen, who typically had to write entire books about most of his pieces, is someone whose artistic statements you can at least attempt to glean if you listen to his stuff. Though, don't say that too loudly, linders: you might get someone who would pull a Milton Babbitt on you and say "advanced" storytelling is too complex for a normally well-educated man without special preparation to understand.Of course you are right. But a failure to properly communicate with your audience makes it real difficult to earn supper as an artist. Unless you can get a subsidy. And as Heinlein said in the voice of Jubal Harshaw, "A government-supported artist is an incompetent whore!" Crude but it gets the point across.
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Post by Knightfall on Apr 12, 2012 23:16:28 GMT 1
In my eyes, BioWare lost their ability to claim "artistic integrity" when they sold "From Ashes" as day one DLC. That should've been in the game. When you're willing to compromise story integrity to make more money off of gamers who are already paying a decent amount of cash... Yeah.
I'm not opposed to DLC, but that was just shady. There's no real precedent for that. I've used this example before I think, but that would be like BioWare making KotOR 3 and then charging for a True Sith party member.
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Post by Clint Johnston on Apr 12, 2012 23:51:38 GMT 1
"Ah-what we have here... is a failure to communicate"
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Post by Hodster on Apr 14, 2012 1:08:03 GMT 1
In my eyes, BioWare lost their ability to claim "artistic integrity" when they sold "From Ashes" as day one DLC. That should've been in the game. When you're willing to compromise story integrity to make more money off of gamers who are already paying a decent amount of cash... Yeah. I'm not opposed to DLC, but that was just shady. There's no real precedent for that. I've used this example before I think, but that would be like BioWare making KotOR 3 and then charging for a True Sith party member. This!
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Apr 15, 2012 14:12:37 GMT 1
In my eyes, BioWare lost their ability to claim "artistic integrity" when they sold "From Ashes" as day one DLC. That should've been in the game. When you're willing to compromise story integrity to make more money off of gamers who are already paying a decent amount of cash... Yeah. I'm not opposed to DLC, but that was just shady. There's no real precedent for that. I've used this example before I think, but that would be like BioWare making KotOR 3 and then charging for a True Sith party member. This is why I want to head desk everytime they said the word Artistic Integrity. If only they listen to reason, but no. Hence, for now on, I don't believe Artistic Integrity, only Artistic Responsibility, where the artist/designer's goal is not to fuck it up badly in the first place. It had it perks when you do it right, like the fans will not hound you for months, with retake movements and what not, and the ability to sleep soundly.
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Post by Rascarin on Apr 15, 2012 23:04:27 GMT 1
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Post by Rascarin on Apr 15, 2012 23:05:35 GMT 1
Coming Soon: The Steaming Pile of Shit; Extended Cut
I'm going to add texture lines to the poop, maybe some more stink lines.
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Post by Mister Buch on Apr 15, 2012 23:19:55 GMT 1
I don't know why I keep leaping into this to try and defend the ending, but here I go again...
I think there IS something artistic and well worth preserving in that ending. I don't think the ending is good. I don't think it makes sense. It pissed me off. But - I think there's something really neat in it. The game, which has always been about the possibilities of life and co-operation in a whole galaxy, tries to expand its horizons, to speculate on a Universe, and a more massive period of time. Shepard and the catalyst become sort-of godlike figures and we see grander, more cosmic implications than 'will the geth or quarians survive'. Instead we look at the nature of creators and their creations, and race-relations on the grandest scale possible. And it ends with all sorts of new beginnings, big bangs.
And then the Normandy crashes, no characters get their own story-arcs finished, and it goes to shit. But there is something really, really nice there. Something tied to all three of the games' stories in a subtle, clever and thematic way. Something unique for BioWare. I think they reached too far and fell over at the last second. But I do like what they were 'pointing at' very much.
Regarding the 'extended' version -- I am not expecting this to make the ending good. But, I bet I end up liking it. I know I'm in the massive minority here, maybe because it happened to hit my buttons or maybe because I loved the game itself so much. Maybe just because I was warned, and went in expecting the worst.
But yeah - it has artistic integrity. They're not Michael Bay - they just tried to be clever and buggered it up. Calm the hell down.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Apr 15, 2012 23:42:40 GMT 1
I'm not going to argue about the whole ending again, since everyone has difference taste and what not. As for BioWare have Artistic Intergrity. Clearly this shows them how much intergrity they have: i.imgur.com/Ikg4Q.jpg[/img]
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Post by Mister Buch on Apr 15, 2012 23:52:46 GMT 1
That quote shows how much professional integrity they have. Big difference.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Apr 16, 2012 0:32:29 GMT 1
To you maybe, but as a game designer student, who had been sticking their ears to the ground for the past couple of years; the lines between 'artistic' and 'professional' blurred, especially from where I'm standing.
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Post by jklinders on Apr 16, 2012 1:26:02 GMT 1
I'm not going to argue about the whole ending again, since everyone has difference taste and what not. As for BioWare have Artistic Intergrity. Clearly this shows them how much intergrity they have: i.imgur.com/Ikg4Q.jpg[/img][/quote] Screw the criticism here. Tillian, if you get into game design and are ready to launch your product hire whoever wrote that. They are one of the better spin doctors I have heard of.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Apr 16, 2012 1:49:25 GMT 1
Screw the criticism here. Tillian, if you get into game design and are ready to launch your product hire whoever wrote that. They are one of the better spin doctors I have heard of. I can't tell if that's a straight answer or not since I can't read vocal tones over the Internet. However, while I can seen the effort they put in, it's kind of mistimed considering the current situation they are dealing with. You don't want to add more fuel to the flame, regardless if it's a pr spin or not.
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Post by jklinders on Apr 16, 2012 2:34:42 GMT 1
Everything is about context. The hardcore fans have already bought it. The ones just coming in have no idea what the fuss is about. It's actually probably pretty safe. It really can't get much hotter than it was a couple of weeks ago. They probably feel they got over the worst of it. They might as well try to spin it at this point.
In other words I was not trying to be a brat but really think there was an attempt, a good one at putting a positive spin on the trouble.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Apr 16, 2012 3:34:00 GMT 1
Fair enough I suppose, wasn't trying to be hissy about it either, just my snarky detection was malfunctioning this morning (being a non-morning person myself). Hence I kinda need some clarification from you.
I do see the point with this PR spin. Still, I would prefer to do things right in one piece and make the product complete, rather than deal a massive shitstorm over something that is incomplete and not having a decent QA/beta read check. At least I can sleep soundly knowing I make the work complete and the audience won't complain much as these guys. It's not a jab at BioWare, but I'm use to indulge in a good night's sleep and I don't want to lose over constantly worrying over things, like BioWare is forced to deal with at the moment.
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