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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Jan 14, 2010 6:03:38 GMT 1
Well... I'm feeling a bit chilly here, so I'm going to start up some flint and tintel to start up the flames. So feel free to discuss about JRPGs and BioWare's founder discussion about the decline of the JRPGs today. Or if you feeling a bit morbid, talk about Greg's shameless plus about Mass Effect 2. While up at BioWare's headquarters in Edmonton, I had the opportunity to throw some questions at company co-founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk. I was curious about how the duo felt about the current RPG landscape in general, and why we're seeing more and more western-style RPGs while JRPGs have, at least among North American audiences, fallen somewhat to the wayside.
"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression," Zeschuk said. "They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience.
"My favorite thing, it's funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, 'do you wanna do this or this,' and you say no. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. Lemme think -- you want me to say 'yes.' And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG."
Zeschuk admits that there are definitely exceptions coming from the East (Demon's Souls is currently one of his favorite games), but North American definitions of role-playing have simply evolved beyond those of their counterparts on the other side of the world. "We have big debates on whether GTA is an RPG, for example. It's got all the elements, it just doesn't have the numbers. And what gamers here want is that higher depth, that higher integration of features...Mass Effect 2 is in some ways a continuation of that evolution."
I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Zeschuk, but I no longer have any patience for JRPGs whatsoever (Half-Minute Hero notwithstanding, obviously). I'm curious to see what JRPG fans think of Zeschuk's stance, though. Do JRPGs really suffer from a lack of evolution?www.destructoid.com/bioware-co-founder-jrpgs-suffer-from-lack-of-evolution--155782.phtml
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Post by Cali on Jan 14, 2010 6:20:07 GMT 1
If I sound like an asshole, then pardon me, but...
I despise JRPGs. Moreso, I dislike the pocky eating, pseudo intellectual wapanese who rally under the brittle, diminishing bandwagon. The only JRPGs I can stand to play are Final Fantasy III, Secret of Evermore, and Secret of Mana, and I rarely ever dip into those. (I hear Final Fantasy VIII is good, but I haven't actually played it). These guys eat whatever is on their plate, no matter how putrid the stuff tastes.
The majority of the JRPG market suffers from asinine dialogue, ridiculous characters, embarrassing stories, knuckle dragging party management and other such demons.
I hope the credibility and creativity of the JRPG scene rebounds sometime, because I'm getting quite tired of seeing the Final Fantasy series making a bigger joke of itself overtime. God, the series has so much potential to be good again. For one, they need to expand the art style in the games, instead of relying on exploiting the other things the series left behind. FF3's steampunk setting was awesome, and I want to see more stuff like that in future titles. Perhaps a Frankenstein-Dracula Gothic setting, or a Blade Runner/Shadowrun esque Cyberpunk environment. Hell, make it a Sci-Fi. Just do something cool with it.
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Post by Zarsthor on Jan 14, 2010 7:10:20 GMT 1
I hate grind. JRPG = Grind. WOW = Grind. So you can see where thats going.
I played my first Final Fantasy game 2 years ago. It was number 7 the one with Waka (Benders voice!) and Jetcht (a ridicullous name) It was grind. Grind. Grind. Grind. I actually payed people to grind for me. lol But even then I only managed to something like 1/4 of the story before I was ultimately bored and gave up. Nothing happened and I was bored of waiting for pretty cut scenes. Thats basically what JRPG is though, grind and pretty cut scenes. But even pretty cut scenes can't deny the fact its a 2 hours story game that was buffered out. Thats why I don't like JRPG. Grind and lack of imagination. Shiny does not equal good game.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Jan 14, 2010 10:39:27 GMT 1
Interesting opinions here. Particularly with Cali's outtake.
Btw Zars, you've mistaken the final fantasy 10 as 7. I know Waka and Jecht were in number 10. (See? watch me summon my game nerdiness to the full effect in it's beautiful technicolour effects and long ass animation.)
The JRPGS were the main reason why I've becoming more jaded and cynical with the games industry in the late. For some reason after JRPGs are becoming more common and samesh to the point that if I've see one JRPG, basically I've seen it all. As for plot and characterisation, I hate to sounded so bias but the characters tend to be cookie cutters of the archetype. More on that later. Yes, game history analysis time children. (Mind you, this is mostly from my musings, not from solid research so bewarned.)
Firstly, in order to find the cause of the decline of JRPGs in the late, we go back in time and look at their height of popularity at the time. In 90's JRPGs and anything were remotely close to Manga/Anime style were close to non-existent within the western world. Sure you have Phantasy Stars, Final Fantasy, etc, etc but they are close to the western counter parts of D&D style that fit the taste of Western audience in terms of artstyle and storytelling. Even the original artbox of the older Phantasy Star series were replaced by the Boris Vanjelo ripoff design.
When Final Fantasy 7 was release in it's glorious anime SD polygon graphics, all the sudden western gamers have gone gaga over the things about JRPGs. At the time the storytelling was different to the usual straight fantasy in the likes of Baldur's Gate, Rage of Mages, Icewind Dale, etc, etc. And the artstyle was pretty, colourful and lovely at the time time, in stark contrast to the 'brown is real' crap in the older fallout and Baldur's Gate series, hence the reason why JRPGs look pretty in their presentations right up to the today's world. Also it helps cemented the popularity of JRPGs that it was released on a console machine and the combat system caters to 'mainstream' gamers everywhere.
After their fill with FF7, they wanted more, so they began scouring for more JRPGs and all things that are otaku to quench their thirst for JRPGs and their pretty presentation. As the usual "awe by revolutionary bullshit talk" at the time, the rest was history when it comes to JRPGs popularity... or is it?
So why it declined? That's when the 'talk' of the technology evolution crap comes in. Unfortunately, I have to agree with Greg on this one, as much as I've wanted argue against his argument, JRPGs didn't evolved at all in terms of gameplay. Sure FF12 did change with the gamlit system but the storytelling mechcanics and gameplay didn't change much at all. We still have the same old cookie cutter hero achetypes, same old grinding and the same old "thou must get lumped with the staff chick even thought you blantly say no, not my type" linear choices. And yes, one of the reasons why I've haven't finished my playthrough in FF12. Combat is better but do I have to slog through more xp to lvl up all my characters? Even Valkyrie Profile 2 (One of the other JRPGS I've prefer) has fallen to this guilty sin.
Speaking of Valkyrie Profile, I've don't recalled JRPGs have deeper storytelling in most cases. Quite a handful to be frankly honest. Most JRPGS tends to be too linear to the point it always "thou must" see the whole world in black and white, not in grey and grey morality like Mass Effect, Planescape Torment or even the Convent of the Plume.
I guess the downfall of the popularity all it comes to gameplay and... interaction. I know a couple of linear RPGS are fun (Eg: Okami, Secret of Mana), but they have fun gameplay that wasn't painful as the Final Fantasy series or most JRPGs. and if those painful mechcanics were implement as an obstacle to progression in storytelling, then the carrot they dangle is pretty rotten with a generic storyline.
Well that's my broken two cent since my opinions were kinda firmsy at best without a deep research in such things but yeah... that's my talk for now.
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Post by Mister Buch on Jan 16, 2010 1:02:58 GMT 1
Interesting, interesting...
I must agree with the 'grinding' point. That endless repetition of battles is what spoils JRPGS's / linear RPG's for me. That and I hate having to think strategically. I enjoy a fight I can charge heroically into, and look cool somehow surviving.
And random encounters suck too.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Jan 16, 2010 1:08:01 GMT 1
Wait... they still have random encounters in JRPGs? NO WONDER!
That explains the decline of JRPGS and Greg's arguements. Random Encounters are a really old mechcanics that should be ditched in today's technology. Lord help us if ME series weren't action orientated but instead it's a chock-a-block full of random encounters mechcanics... There will be riot outside of BioWare studios for sure.
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Post by Mister Buch on Jan 16, 2010 1:11:46 GMT 1
Gorram 'Enchanted Arms' was chock-full of random encounters. Every five seconds I was in a random encounter - and I still got my spikey blond hair knocked off by the end boss.
That boss was ridiculously hard - but I was enjoying the story and I had been doing so well - so I spent two days (no joke) grinding in her lair so that I would have even a chance against her. And I won, and the ending was pretty much worth it.
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Post by Knightfall on Jan 16, 2010 7:51:14 GMT 1
I think about this a lot (don't ask me why) but I've almost come to the decision that perhaps it's Japanese society itself that's the root cause of the JRPG's inability to make change of any kind, and actually it's not just exclusive to JRPGS now that I think about it.
Dynasty Warriors, for instance. My friends looooooved those games. Whenever a new one came out, they would buy it on the first day, but they were all the same damn game. You run into a mob of people and smash the X button until you win. But those sell incredibly well over there. It's sort of a perversion of that motto, if it ain't broke don't fix it. The game companies see no reason to change, since they're still making good money, so they don't. Change is expensive.
Poke'mon is another example, more in line with the JRPGS. I bought Diamond Version for the DS, and it is literally the same damn game that I bought back in 1998. Nothing's changed. You still have a rival, you still have some sort of professor give you a Poke'mon to start off with. You still have to fight the Elite Four at the end of the game, and you are constantly pressured to catch 'em all. I've given up on the series. I don't know why I thought the series' leap to a different console would change things.
Final Fantasy is a different monster altogether. Square doesn't skimp on the funding for those games, but they don't do anything drastically original with them either. Final Fantasy VII was an amaaaaazing game. The story was original and actually concise. The characters were wonderful. The gameplay was similar to the games that came before it, but it was in 3D!
I remember buying FF8 afterward and loving it. Then FF9 came around and I kinda stopped caring. It got boring. I ended up borrowing FF10 and got the exact same thing, but with some voice acting. Didn't even bother with FF12. But still, the hype over here for Final Fantasy 13 is still very, very high, and I have no idea why.
The Japanese are very good storytellers when they want to be, but they often opt to write something so ambiguous that it's mistaken as art. Case and point: the entire Metal Gear series.
I've definitely given up on JRPGs. They seem to forget that the entire genre was making you feel like you're a part of the story, but they're more concerned with making their games look like a movie to accomplish this.
You're right, Cali, people do rally beneath these games, and I haven't a clue why anymore. They get caught up in the culture shock, and think things are complex and deep when they're not.
But Pocky is damn good. >=O
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Jan 26, 2010 6:26:48 GMT 1
I've enjoyed pockys too. Then again, so does those freshy made chocolate candies at the chocolate pallor that has been scattered around Melbourne. (We're a food capitial, so hush!)
I do agree at the part where the Japanese society reluctant to change were the root in the decline with popularity of JRPGs. Most of the game mechanics were kinda out of dated when compared to other moden titles. While the old school random encounter, turn based combat of the JRPGs would work back in the 90's, in the today's world of gaming, it doesn't fit too well with all the technology they could have harnesss to evoled from that. Then again, it's from a Westerner's perspective. I guess the Japanese customers prefer the same old game since they too, are afraid the change and/or new things.
You know that old saying? "If the wheel isn't broken, don't fix it." I guess that's their philosiphy in their design mantra. Also they fear any sudden changes might scare some customers away, hence that's why the moden JRPGs were still the same old in gameplay terms. But here's another saying I've do recalled from a old games mag I've read a few years ago:
"But the treads of the wheel are worned out, so it's time to change."
I guess the JRPGs are reaching to the point where it grows a little stale and most gamers over here want something else. In other words, there needs to be a few changes if they want to keep the wheel intact. It's fine for Japanese audience but if they want to broaden up to the Western audience, they have to make a middle ground to fit the both of them.
As for the art design in JRPGs are too similar. I'd personally blame Tetsuya Nomura for starting all of this. From FFVII to FFXIII, the characters were too similar to the point it blantly points out Tetsuya's weakness in the art aesthetics, where he's seem to lack in originality.
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Post by Zarsthor on Jan 26, 2010 8:03:17 GMT 1
Kind of weird that Japanese culture was the one doing all the changing and evolving and our now the ones behind.
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Post by yargling on Feb 9, 2010 11:32:20 GMT 1
If I sound like an asshole, then pardon me, but... I despise JRPGs. Moreso, I dislike the pocky eating, pseudo intellectual wapanese who rally under the brittle, diminishing bandwagon. The only JRPGs I can stand to play are Final Fantasy III, Secret of Evermore, and Secret of Mana, and I rarely ever dip into those. (I hear Final Fantasy VIII is good, but I haven't actually played it). These guys eat whatever is on their plate, no matter how putrid the stuff tastes. The majority of the JRPG market suffers from asinine dialogue, ridiculous characters, embarrassing stories, knuckle dragging party management and other such demons. I hope the credibility and creativity of the JRPG scene rebounds sometime, because I'm getting quite tired of seeing the Final Fantasy series making a bigger joke of itself overtime. God, the series has so much potential to be good again. For one, they need to expand the art style in the games, instead of relying on exploiting the other things the series left behind. FF3's steampunk setting was awesome, and I want to see more stuff like that in future titles. Perhaps a Frankenstein-Dracula Gothic setting, or a Blade Runner/Shadowrun esque Cyberpunk environment. Hell, make it a Sci-Fi. Just do something cool with it. I have to agree about the wapanese band wagon who follow JRPGs...though still manage J-RPG is a misnomer because you aren't roleplaying, your watching an adventure, making it an adventure game, not an RPG. What does annoy me greatly is the way they seem to think "Western culture == Tolkien, Japanese culture == everything else", completely ignoring the folklore roots of Tolkiens work whilst embracing Japanese folklore. I'm not a Tolkien fan myself, but I'm sick of every fantasty RPG being called a 'Tolkien knock off'. And more over, I'm sick of the Wapanese ignoring the sci-fi branch of RPGs, like Mass Effect. I'll admit, I don't like the Japanese as a people (individual people who are Japanese are a different story); they are xenophobic, and seem to want to ignore their ancestors crimes against the world (and I'm from England, so no A-bomb comments, although I do think the A-bomb was the right choice). But thats nothing compared to the blind fury I feel towards the Wapanese pocky eating crowd; the ones who think that everything Japanese is greater than everything western because they grew up with Western things; I'm sick of them writting off everything western, and I'm sick of people like MovieBob making out everything video gaming is Japanese in culture. I have tried JRPGs, and some at least have keep my interest for alittle while (Chrono-trigger, Mario and Luigi - Bowsers inside story), but I've never played a JRPG to completion.
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Post by yargling on Feb 9, 2010 11:34:05 GMT 1
Kind of weird that Japanese culture was the one doing all the changing and evolving and our now the ones behind. Did you mean "are" instead of "our"? And when you say Japanese culture, do you mean after shortly after WW2 or in a certain decade?
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Post by Cali on Feb 10, 2010 3:54:05 GMT 1
Zars left the boards a few days ago, Yargling.
And yes, you refined what I just said to a great extent. I had to have reminded my brother more than twice that Tolkien was heavily influenced by Greek, Arabic, African, and Norse mythology.
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Post by yargling on Feb 11, 2010 18:36:37 GMT 1
Zars left the boards a few days ago, Yargling. And yes, you refined what I just said to a great extent. I had to have reminded my brother more than twice that Tolkien was heavily influenced by Greek, Arabic, African, and Norse mythology. Ah, fair enough about Zar. As for the comments I made, I thought I'd just expand on why I personally hate them, heh. I was afraid it'd come of as...anti-nerd rage? Or would it still be nerd-rage?
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Feb 19, 2010 4:29:04 GMT 1
Understandable Yargling. I do question a lot about the Japanese customs and their way of life a lot. First of all, they are racist with the Korean people, believe or not. Just why? Is it due to the WW2 days or they feeling smug that they are superior than them? This may sounded wierd but yes, they are kinda racist to the Korean people. Although the word "kinda" is an understatement.
Secondly, they Japanese people seem to be so obsessed with sex yet they finched when they see violence? Don't believe me, try walking around Tokyo and good luck in not running into a seemly normal shop that doesn't have all the sexual stuff they put on the shelf.
Let's not start the "Oh you have four fingers? You Suck! Go and DICF!" attitude...
Sorry to sound a little racist but... yeah, I do have my own person qualms about it. Then again, I blame Australia to make me a wide eye idealist who believe that no matter the colour, we're all humans, just the same.
As for the Wapanese people... I do agree on that. They just as ignorant as a bogan. I'm sorry but, while they proclaim themselves as "open minded" I'm more inclined to think they just as ignorant as the Japanese people. To be more broarded minded is to enjoy all cultures. Including games. That's what I do. I've played both Eastern and Western Games just to get the scene where they are at. And I've tried to throw in a little indie games to the mix if I can.
Then again, I'm a Game Designer Student... which forces me to see the whole gaming world in a more a wider perspective...
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