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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Sept 6, 2009 10:40:49 GMT 1
I've been reading through the article that discusses about love and sex in games. www.gamecritics.com/alex-raymond/women-arent-vending-machines-how-video-games-perpetuate-the-commodity-model-of-sexI can see her point how she's worried about a trend where the male protagonists are acting like the romantic nerfario but I want to speak up my arguements about this. Firstly, about Mass Effect. While I'm trying to quell down my fan rage about it (I'm a big fan of Mass Effect after all), I really have to disagree about her statement: For example, one gamer commented that the romance in Mass Effect seemed like the romantic interest was really saying, "Keep talking to me and eventually we'll have sex". The relationship is not the goal; the goal is the tasteful PG-13 sex scene. The NPC's thoughts and desires aren't relevant; what matters is the tactics you use to get what you want. This is a boring mechanic in games and dangerously dehumanizing behavior in real life.There's a reason why Fox News got butt hurt from angry accademic gamers and professors in the first place. Firstly I don't agree about "Keep talking to me and eventually we'll have sex." part. In the game it's more than that, you have learn how to treat your romance interest well. In other words you have to use your real life common sense hat "How I would treat my romantic interest as I would usually do with my bf/gf?" In other words, the game tries to teach the player the idea of treating your loved one with respect. Secondly, did the said NPC said something along the lines "we'll have sex eventually"? I don't recall that. The reason why you and the said NPC have an intimate moment as the result of a heated rush at the last minute, is because they thought the end was inevial. Seriously, think about it, if you and your lover are going to have the last moment of their lives before facing death, what would you do? Sharing the emotional passion one last time. That's what Shepard and her/his lover do. I can't see sex as part of some reward in this game, instead I see it as a storytelling technique that heightens the emotional high ball, trying to have the relationship reaching out for the cresendo of the romance. One other thing that really got on my nerves is how she said that females are treated as vending machines: "It is seriously problematic to have a game where the male player/avatar can have sex with any and every woman in the game... In addition, it perpetuates the narrative of the Nice Guy (described in Millar's essay, and elsewhere): that men are entitled to sex from women if they follow the rules and do the right things, or in the case of Alpha Protocol, "select your responses wisely."Alright, I have to admit that I haven't got a copy of Alpha Protocol in my library yet but so she didn't. I'm not try to dis her or anything but like Mass Effect She admits in the comments she didn't get a chance to play the game until after her essay were released out into the public. (Yes she plays it and still sticks to her guns). But let me tell you this: "Don't judge the book by it covers." She thought that Alpha Protolcol might be treating women as vending machines but I so have heard it's an RPG that might be going through some depth in the storytelling and character department. So in other words: wait and see. There might be more to it than it meets the eye. While we're on the subject of women in games, I like to point out that not all women allowed the protagonist to be entitled to have sex with them mind you and there are gay and bi npcs. Like the protagonist Hana from Fear Effect, she's a lesbian protagonist who have a steady relationship with Rain at the time. While the game does likes to skirting troubles with the protagonist and her lover doing the 'sexy' show, they were portraying to have a deep meaningful relationship, particually near the end of the game where you're forced to pick out the right person otherwise the consenqunces are terrifying if you managed to kill your lover accidently. Also if women are willing to sleep with the male npc no matter what as long they pick out the right pathways, then why did Ashley loses her rags and broke up with Shepard if he suggested a threesome with Liara? Well while I'm still baffled by Liara staying with Shepard after he made that suggestion, that part proves that you have to PICK one. There's no thrid option for that relationship. Anyways, I finished reading it but I need to re-read again so I can inspect a closer look at but all I can say is... yes we still do need to have MEN and WOMEN treated equally as a human being but... so far the games industry are slowly improving in that department and secondally, the game technology is still primative when it comes to enchancing the AI with a deep meaning immersion of the relationship at this time. So far I see the storytelling and character development in games are steadly improving and of course, I do see queer option in games but it's not so opened up yet. It's getting there. So yeah I'll read more now and decide carefully about this but I would like to hear about your opinion about this from everyone.
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 6, 2009 11:45:39 GMT 1
Of course every medium is full of subtle sexism. It's ingrained in everything. Videogames have traditionally (and still very heavily) favoured male protagonists, often performing physical challenges to rescue or impress a pretty girl.
I think nowadays it's being forcibly pushed out by people like Bioware. They always include the ability to select gender in their RPG's, and they try very hard to allow the player to be lesbian (though evidently they don't have the stones for a gay male romance - Sky doesn't count because it was almost impossible to achieve.)
I think it's absolutely ridiculous to use a game as an example that you haven't actually played. That Fox news lady made me SO angry when she admitted she hadn't played Mass Effect. She could have mentioned so many games, but Mass Effect has maybe the most realistic, drawn-out, romance-based relationship plots out there. Yes, there was sex at the end, but as Till said, it was plot-driven. And come on! That was an extremely tame sex scene. Other games have character costumes that reveal more. So yeah, Mass Effect is a terrible example if we're complaining about sexual content or sexism in games. It goes out of its way to contai neither.
Then again... the depiction of the female aliens as beautiful, sensual and wearing tight clothes... that's a little much.
"It is seriously problematic to have a game where the male player/avatar can have sex with any and every woman in the game..." That statement is ridiculous. There is no game like that. Not even Leisure Suit Larry.
"For example, one gamer commented that the romance in Mass Effect seemed like the romantic interest was really saying, "Keep talking to me and eventually we'll have sex". The relationship is not the goal; the goal is the tasteful PG-13 sex scene. The NPC's thoughts and desires aren't relevant..." There is a sex scene at the end of the game, and the player will likely know about this before hand, so it could certainly be his motivation for playing it. So I will take this point seriously. Interesting how the identical opportunity to have a female player romance and sleep with a man is never brought up in these debates.
BUT if the player felt that the character was just offering sex, or the author of the essay felt that her emotions were irrelevant, then s/he was not paying attention to the game. Of course the emotions are relevant. You need to pay attention to the character's personality and behaviour to GET the right responses - whether your goal be plot development or the chance to watch a four-second, blurry sex scene.
God help you if the latter is your reason for playing a forty-hour dialogue-based adventure game.
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Post by Knightfall on Sept 6, 2009 18:33:39 GMT 1
I read this article the other day. I'm not quite sure what to think. On the one hand, saying there's sexism in gaming is like saying there are clouds in the sky. I find it interesting that Alpha Protocol was the game that made this author aware of this trend. As an industry, gaming is just now coming into this stage where people want to have relationship in-game. It adds a whole other layer to the gameplay and makes it that much more immersive. Now, have the developers gotten this completely right? Not really. Not to me, anyway. Mass Effect had each version of your avatar, male or female, pick between two different characters to have a relationship with, and one of them is the same character, Liara. In a perfect game, your choices wouldn't be limited to the only other female onboard, and likewise with the females. Why can't Joker be an option for females, for instance? Sure, he'd be crushed, but...yeah. Fable 2 is the only game that's gotten even remotely close. You can pick from anyone, and it doesn't matter what gender your avatar is. Leave it to the Brits to actually break down those barriers and add in those gay relationships. Hopefully Bioware follows through one day for the sake of ethics. But, if these are the best examples of meaningful relationships in games, it makes it very clear that the developers haven't even properly tapped (Ha Ha! Tapped...) into what's possible in that realm. We'll have to wait and see how ME2 improves upon this, since I was somewhat disappointed with how the first game handled things. Back to sexism, though. Why the hell would they focus on games like Alpha Protocol and Mass Effect if they're making strides in the right direction, while there are games like this out there: kotaku.com/5352254/ninja-gaiden-sigma-2-gets-sixaxis-jiggle-supportwww.destructoid.com/breast-fondling-as-marketing-for-ninja-gaiden-sigma-2-142015.phtmlThat author needs to pick up a fucking PS3 controller and play ONE game of Soul Caliber and get over these relatively harmless western RPGs. These American/Canadian/British companies are trying the sincere route and are getting castrated for it, which is terribly silly given the precedent in Japanese gaming. And if you haven't gotten on the Bayonetta bandwagon, get on the bus! kotaku.com/5225641/bringing-bayonettas-butt-to-lifekotaku.com/5352459/all-about-bayonettas-face
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 6, 2009 22:58:41 GMT 1
Eleven Thirty Eight makes a fine point about Japanese games. Women are portrayed in the most extraordinary ways. Soul Caliber, where every single woman is a sex object with giant, bouncing boobs. DOA where every single woman is a sex object with even bigger bouncing boobs, and who like to play volleyball on the weekends. And of course, Cooking Mama. There's Metroid, but Samus' identity remains as mysterious as possible and she doesn't speak (I haven;t played the 3D ones - does she speak in those?)
I avoid the GTA series as much as possible, but doesn't that allow you far, far more objectification and using of women than any RPG?
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Post by Knightfall on Sept 7, 2009 6:56:32 GMT 1
Yeah. I just don't like when some random reporter goes and thinks he/she has just discovered something no one else knows about. Of course games are sexist, but why target a game where the sex is actually portrayed closer to a relationship simulator, whereas these Japanese games just flat out do everything but have women prance around naked...and I'm sure those games exist over there, actually. If this is a problem, which I'm hesitant to say it is (with the exception of the booby wall advertising I linked), starting with Western RPG's the last place you should look to start pointing fingers. They're the only ones that are treating these relationships with some semblance of respect. Even GTA IV respects this, which I've played for a while. You can pick up prostitutes, but there are also several relationship options where you can woo a woman you find interesting. It's not as sleazy as it sounds: sometimes you take your date out to dinner, sometimes you go bowling, sometimes you visit an amusement park. It really isn't that bad. Unless you pick up a prostitute... I know where my recommendations usually end up with you, Buch, so I'll just say that I find the game to be very good and leave it at that. xD Also, if you thought Metroid and dear, sweet Samus was safe...guess again: www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNxeCHpp08EIf that link doesn't work, do a youtube search for "Metroid Other M"
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 7, 2009 9:48:12 GMT 1
That's just movie reccomendations Poor, poor Samus. She seems to be forced into that blue leotard an awful lot now. And I just remembered that at the end of the games you get to see her in her underwear. Sigh! The funniest thing about that trailer is definitely when this random guy pulls up his helmet visor and grins, going, 'Remember me?' Uhm...... no! How embarassing.
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Post by Knightfall on Sept 7, 2009 10:03:25 GMT 1
The funniest thing about that trailer is definitely when this random guy pulls up his helmet visor and grins, going, 'Remember me?' Uhm...... no! How embarassing. Yeah! My sister and I were cracking up about that, too! He just looks unbelievably happy to see Samus...and I don't remember him from any other game. I hope she doesn't break his heart: couldn't happen to a nicer looking dude.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Sept 7, 2009 12:58:32 GMT 1
Yeah. I just don't like when some random reporter goes and thinks he/she has just discovered something no one else knows about. That's what I dislike women in gaming sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I reckon we as women should more empathsis for equal standards in presence of games and portraying them with respect but... I just don't like it when a female gamer reporter/journalist acting all hardcore feminist to the balls (oh god... terrible pun -_-) and stating that they are the representatives to the gaming women when they are bloody out of touch with the majority of women gamers. Seriously, if you think the problem is so bad then why don't you start to apply as a professor to some collage and start preaching the empathsis about the topic to the freshmen game design students. Or even better, I dare you to write a thesis about it and get your Ph.d at the same time if you're so inclined. Btw, the topic about sexism in games is old news. Nowdays most of the game developers (at least in western countries) are aware about this, as it evidant by the moden RPGS and even GTA4 of all things! Of course games are sexist, but why target a game where the sex is actually portrayed closer to a relationship simulator, whereas these Japanese games just flat out do everything but have women prance around naked...and I'm sure those games exist over there, actually. If this is a problem, which I'm hesitant to say it is (with the exception of the booby wall advertising I linked), starting with Western RPG's the last place you should look to start pointing fingers. They're the only ones that are treating these relationships with some semblance of respect. That's is one of the main reasons why I see her arguments are weaker than it should be. As I've said before about Western RPGS and what Knight just said; the Western RPGS genre are more plot and character driven, hence when a player picks up a WRPG from generic video game shop, they know first hand that the objective and goals are about plot advancement and character development. Hence they are not too interested in the idea of wooing a npc chick and bang them in the game as their main objective, as they were more interested in focusing having their avatars being bonded to the desired npc. Certainly the journalist didn't look at the fans in Mass Effect offical forums debating heatly about their love interest npcs from ME1 in regards about their future roles in ME2, as it seems it's more than just the sex that they aiming for, instead they 'bonded' with the desire npc. Not only her arguements that not on solid ground by the reaction from the fans but also it proves as Knights point that WRPG are striving for equal oppotunity in regards to love and sex. And yes, I'm really surprised that she didn't brought up the arguements in regards to other games, especially with Japanese origin games that they are more empthising on the male sexual dominant realm. Not just the god awful hentai games that plagued the video game market in Japan but also in other popular games that showing signs of heavy subtle (or blantant in some cases) sexsim. I think she should focus her arguements on those games as they are in dire need of attention in regards to relationship equalty, as the WRPGS are showing clear signs of intergrity while these Japanese games are not showing any signs of equal oppotunity for women in games anytime soon. And speaking of Japanese games, I really hate to admit but they seem far behind with the idea of symbolising women as equal. Not just the hentai games but also in mainstream games like Final Fantasy, etc, etc. FFX and FFX-2 are the biggest offenders imo; where the female protagonist Yuna is merely a typical frail woman who acts like a typical ideal Asian maiden that most Asian male suitors are chasing after while in FFX-2... let's just say it's stripterific fest. And not just FFX, also most JRPG are following this disturbing trend with women protagonist that are so weak willed that they need a man in their lives to help them out. >.< And it certainly didn't helped where in most Eastern regions like Japan, China, Vietnam, Korea, etc, etc; where the culture itself are male dominant from what I've last check. I could be wrong but as far as I can tell that their culture infuance art of game design heavily in their in regards to portrayal of women. I admit, there are exceptions to this (Valkyrie Choronicles and FFXII), but the majority of Japanese games so far shows a clear male sexual dominants in this. So yeah... Bottomline, I think this journalist is fighting at the wrong place as WRPG don't empathise Male sexual dominants as the Japanese games...
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Post by Rascarin on Sept 7, 2009 13:27:12 GMT 1
I'll admit right now I've only skim-read this thread, so my following remarks may be completely irrelevant to the current discussion.
Sexism in games doesn't bother me. A game depicts a woman with a heaving, bouncy chest, I don't care. Because a lot of women in real life have huge bosoms. A game depicts a male character with a cavalier, chauvinistic attitude towards women; I don't care. Speak to a lot of guys, and they'll be exactly the same.
Sexism in games is, lets be honest, representative of sexism that exists in real life. [Some] men objectify women, homosexuality is repressed, and meaningless sex abounds. Games aren't sexist; people are, and the way I see it, games merely reflect that.
As for Japanese games, whilst the attitudes contained may seem shocking and appalling to us, it is STILL a reflection of their culture and attitudes. Women ARE treated like second-class citizens in Japan. The games, whilst I consider them to be absolutely disgusting (those Rape games in particular), would not be made if there were not people that did not agree with the attitudes depicted within.
Games cater to people - a game does not take a controversial issue and cram it down our necks. Games exist to sell. If everyone disagreed with what a game depicts, it would not sell. There's a reason that almost all of the chat messages on Evony were people shouting "Where is the cleavage!?" - whilst none of us particularly like those ads (that newest one is not so bad though), they work.
I feel I've begun to ramble, and I've forgotten where I was going with this. I'll come back later when I remember.
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 7, 2009 13:33:37 GMT 1
But the games don't represent the whole of real life. In video games, there's no awkward, glasses-wearing bisexual guy as the protagonist. In real life here I am.
In Soul Calibur, Eeeeeeveryone has giant boobs. In reality they're a rarity. Thank God. And there are even some ugly women.
The games represent the majority, or the sexist ideal - and they encourage it. They encourage men to be protectors and women to be submissive.
Games depict and lionise a sexist society, often an exaggerated one.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Sept 7, 2009 13:46:18 GMT 1
Well, I'm not really againist women showing off their own sassy and sexy appeal as long it's either relevant to the game (eg: Fear Effect has Hana as a trashy whore but it's based on her job and her persona) or it's tasteful enough that it empowers the women themselves (... umm ran out ideas for this one I'm blank atm).
To be really honest it's not men also women who like to slip into a sexy woman avatar and fantasise them as someone else beyound their real life ego. It's an exciting other self ego that we poured our imagination into the game (certainly I don't want to play as someone who is a gullible, nervous and awkward protagonist as me >.>)
So yeah... I'm not too fuss about portrayal in todays games that mucc since it's slowly improving, I'll leave it to that but still between that talk on the blog and Japanese games.. still shits me in bothways.
As Rascarin said about Japanese games that reflect on women as second citizens... I have to say if Zars were reading this... this is why I refused to go out with an Asian guy in the future. That's how the Asian mainstream culture reflects on it.
Anyways steering away from my personal accounts I have to say I can tolerate most of the stuff in games when it comes to women but there's one thing... one thing in a Western game shits me so bad about the portrayal of women in game... it has to be...
World of Warcraft.
Fine, you can have skimpy armour but I cannot FUCKING stand the Female Night Elf dance. God... it looks like a slut/stripper dance style. You know how FUCKING irritating that half the sad pervert nerdy players ask my Night Elf Hunter to dance for them? D:
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Post by Knightfall on Sept 7, 2009 20:41:28 GMT 1
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
See, obviously this is no surprise to anyone, so why is this blog author freaking out like it's the first time he/she has heard of this? I think Alpha Protocol will be a very good game since Obsidian Entertainment's behind it, who are frequent collaborators with both Bioware and Bethesda. In terms of integrity, I wouldn't worry about them.
Now, there hasn't been a time that I've been offended by a video game. But then again, I'm a crazy sexist. ;D
But as you all have pointed out, some of this stuff is rooted in Japanese culture. So you can't attack this issue w/o attacking something waaay more personal. So it's like this author tried to attack the easiest target. -.-
If there's going to be any progression in video games, it's as simple as not buying those games. I know I, for one, lost interest in JRPG's a very long time ago, not too long after Final Fantasy 9. And the Western market has been influencing the Japanese market of late. We've seen this in how they're releasing FFXIII for the Xbox 360 and how it will be using the Unreal Engine from the makers of Gears of War...and Unreal, of course...
Don't buy, and they won't make.
As for World of Warcraft, I know what you mean about the dances. The blood elf dances aren't much better either. ><
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Post by Zarsthor on Sept 8, 2009 1:27:06 GMT 1
Ok I tried to catch up with all your big essays but come on guys its like reading a novel in here. lol
Nice to see you all passionately talking about sexism in games though. Here's my "haven't read everything you guys said" 2 cents. Like Rascarin said, a women turns up with big boobs I don't care. Just as long as its not everybody because then thats just weird. A random dude with sexism for breath, I don't care as long as I can hurt him in the game. The thing about GTA and the prostitutes is there really our prostitutes out there so thats realism I guess. The prostitutes really didn't bother me, until I saw Daniel shooting one to get his money back then I called him a number of names. Mass Effect did try to make it a relationshipy kind of thing but really I wasn't feeling it to much. It had some of the Jade Empire faults where in I was trying to shoo a romance option away and they still tried to bed me. I agree partially with the idea it was a "talk to me and I'll blow your mind over Iios baby." but Bioware at least tried. The kind of sexism in games that pisses me off is the sheer amount of male protagonists you have to play, especially in a game that lets you choose more than one character. Had a problem last year when a bunch of us used to play WWE Smack down. If I wanted to play with the guys I had to make a guy character. The game simply won't allow you to play in multiplayer mode with a woman. You can make a woman character sure but don't expect to be able to play her. In the end we found away around it by adding my female character as the team manager. It meant my character hanged around outside the ring and got to hit people with chairs if they fell out but it wasn't very good. All the male models couldn't even be hurt by a female character. Now that is sexism for a game! If a 6 foot women in high heels shoves those stiletto's up your arse you are going to feel it so don't tell me WWE smack down I made zero damage! I spent most of the time playing as the rock there after, gotta love that guy.
I also take offense to the extreme amount of bimbo chicks in games. Why does it seem pretty much every chick is either sex on legs to look at but never speak or she has the personality of a brick. Then we move on to female protagonists. They have sex with lots of people, shoot stuff with big guns in some attempt to make them seem rounded and hardcore when we all know the only hardcore thing about them is that XXX rating there going to get when the porno films come out about them. They always have damn personalties of cucumbers, like they're trying to grow a dick but its just green and squishy and nobody wants to eat it. Its like Piers Anthony. If a women in his stories isn't barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen shes a raging lesbian or evil. Women are not men and women are not what men think we are either. So men should really stop trying to make women because they just get men with breasts or just breasts.
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Post by Mister Buch on Sept 9, 2009 0:38:29 GMT 1
I agree with everything in Zars' post (except the bit at the end where men aren't allowed to write female characters!).
That Smackdown thing is pretty darn sexist. Male characters cannot be hurt by female characters? Damn.
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Post by Zarsthor on Sept 9, 2009 3:58:44 GMT 1
Awww Buch I didn't mean it like that. I meant as in men shouldn't try to make the perfect woman because thats all we really ge tin games. Some guys interpretation of their perfect woman but in real life a woman wouldn't necessarily be that way nor would the guy really want them if they were. Its an extreme fantasy thing that just doesn't work unless its a comedy.
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