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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Jun 6, 2013 19:22:01 GMT 1
You have yet to demonstrate to me how there is any complications concerning modern consoles, and again, you seem to be ignoring what I have said for two posts now. Oh, really? He has yet to demonstrate complications? Hmm... *looks back to re-read Linders' previous post*Every console generation is putting up more crap between the gamers and the games. The online requirement to even have the thing is beyond retarded. They have already changed their tune several times on how much or long online that has to be. ... ...They add on these ancillaries that have nothing to do with what their target audience is looking for from them. PLAYING GAMES. A gamer is not gonna use their console to fart around on Facebook or Twitter, that's what they have computers and smartphones for. So we have all this unneeded architecture and extra DRM crap (don't even try to tell me that the online requirement is not DRM and god help the end user in proving they are not a pirate if it futzes up and it will) taking up space and resource when they could, oh I don't know put in feature that gamers actually want: like the ability to play games made for older systems. ... ...These consoles are all pretty anti consumer. No backwards compatibility, no good reason not to have it. New and improved always online requirements just in case the folks in non broadband internet capable areas didn't already know they were second class citizens. Maybe the Wii U isn't isn't anti consumer as they really did update their motion controls there but there are no games for it yet so we don't even really know it works. Edit: I forgot about the fuck up on trying to control the used game market. Good fucking luck there. This is gonna backfire on them so hard it will be hilarious to watch. Even EA has seen the light on this and Microsoft thinks it's gonna work better for them. Online passes were not even as odious as not even being able to play the fucking thing at all. The Hindenburg disaster will be a pleasant ride compared to the xbone launch. Somehow that seems like he's addressed how there are complications. Perhaps you should re-read his post before getting so confrontational... I don't use consoles, and I don't plan to (unless I can get my hands on a good SNES again), so you might not care what I have to say here... but, even as someone who does not use consoles and doesn't give a damn about the whole console debate, I still understood exactly what Linders had said, and saw immediately that it did address the very thing you accused him of not addressing.
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Post by jklinders on Jun 6, 2013 20:03:20 GMT 1
Wow MEdiscovery, you are being incredibly confrontational over someone having the temerity to have a differing opinion from you. That actually seems to be a defining trend that I have been seeing from you. I read your posts, did you read mine? I sincerely fucking doubt it.
I did address your posts and gave links to videos that clearly explained my position ( you called it appealing to authority I think, in actuality I call it I don't feel like typing for 20 minutes in a vast wall of text to refute you). You have done nothing to explain the all out assault on the used game market that these goons are embarking on. This is beyond DRM and intruding directly into consumers rights. You are blind if you do not see this.
Just to be very clear, the simple fact that I disagree with something you say on something especially when it is a matter of opinion and not fact is neither an attack on your character nor an insult to your honor. You don't have to like what I say or anyone else here but fact is, we are entitled to say it as long as we do not stoop to personal attacks. You are again edging on that line by accusing me of disagreeing with out out of malice or spite.
If you want to continue this do so in PMs. Just try to be a bit more respectful about it. Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean it's the only right one.
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MEdiscovery
Gunnery Chief
The discovery of a life time.
Posts: 93
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Post by MEdiscovery on Jun 6, 2013 21:58:46 GMT 1
You have yet to demonstrate to me how there is any complications concerning modern consoles, and again, you seem to be ignoring what I have said for two posts now. Oh, really? He has yet to demonstrate complications? Hmm... *looks back to re-read Linders' previous post*Every console generation is putting up more crap between the gamers and the games. The online requirement to even have the thing is beyond retarded. They have already changed their tune several times on how much or long online that has to be. ... ...They add on these ancillaries that have nothing to do with what their target audience is looking for from them. PLAYING GAMES. A gamer is not gonna use their console to fart around on Facebook or Twitter, that's what they have computers and smartphones for. So we have all this unneeded architecture and extra DRM crap (don't even try to tell me that the online requirement is not DRM and god help the end user in proving they are not a pirate if it futzes up and it will) taking up space and resource when they could, oh I don't know put in feature that gamers actually want: like the ability to play games made for older systems. ... ...These consoles are all pretty anti consumer. No backwards compatibility, no good reason not to have it. New and improved always online requirements just in case the folks in non broadband internet capable areas didn't already know they were second class citizens. Maybe the Wii U isn't isn't anti consumer as they really did update their motion controls there but there are no games for it yet so we don't even really know it works. Edit: I forgot about the fuck up on trying to control the used game market. Good fucking luck there. This is gonna backfire on them so hard it will be hilarious to watch. Even EA has seen the light on this and Microsoft thinks it's gonna work better for them. Online passes were not even as odious as not even being able to play the fucking thing at all. The Hindenburg disaster will be a pleasant ride compared to the xbone launch. Somehow that seems like he's addressed how there are complications. Perhaps you should re-read his post before getting so confrontational... I don't use consoles, and I don't plan to (unless I can get my hands on a good SNES again), so you might not care what I have to say here... but, even as someone who does not use consoles and doesn't give a damn about the whole console debate, I still understood exactly what Linders had said, and saw immediately that it did address the very thing you accused him of not addressing. Nothing he said has demonstrated any more complications for access to console gaming. The only thing I am willing to admit that these companies are doing wrong are the DRM measures, but I understand the company's side completely for the reasons they implement it. Wow MEdiscovery, you are being incredibly confrontational over someone having the temerity to have a differing opinion from you. That actually seems to be a defining trend that I have been seeing from you. I read your posts, did you read mine? I sincerely fucking doubt it. I did address your posts and gave links to videos that clearly explained my position ( you called it appealing to authority I think, in actuality I call it I don't feel like typing for 20 minutes in a vast wall of text to refute you). You have done nothing to explain the all out assault on the used game market that these goons are embarking on. This is beyond DRM and intruding directly into consumers rights. You are blind if you do not see this. Just to be very clear, the simple fact that I disagree with something you say on something especially when it is a matter of opinion and not fact is neither an attack on your character nor an insult to your honor. You don't have to like what I say or anyone else here but fact is, we are entitled to say it as long as we do not stoop to personal attacks. You are again edging on that line by accusing me of disagreeing with out out of malice or spite. If you want to continue this do so in PMs. Just try to be a bit more respectful about it. Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean it's the only right one. But you seem to be acting as though your opinions have disagreed with mine. I have not implied that I am against the withdrawal of social integration for consoles, nor have stated I am in favor of DRM, nor have I supported the marketing strategies of either company. I have simply explained to you why backwards compatability is not the responsibility of the console developers, why consoles are moving towards full online integration, and why DRM is becoming more prominent. I stated that all those points in my first post, and yet you challenged these points as though you were discrediting my opinions. I thought I made it quite clear in my first post that I do not personally care about either one of these consoles, since I game on PCs. I suppose that my criticisms for even the positive changes they are implementing into these systems (hardware upgrades) were not enough to demonstrate my lack of investment into this debate. My posts up to this point have been purely factual, while attacking your video citations. I want to preface any of my responses following this post by stating that I am rarely ever emotional about these debates and, if I am, will tell you so. If you perceive my words as venomous or defensive, that is either because of a lack of articulation on my part, or because you have misinterpreted the emotions behind my posts.
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Post by jklinders on Jun 6, 2013 22:21:42 GMT 1
OK, I will indulge this one last time before I insist that you take this to PMs if you really want to continue this.
I know full well that they have no obligation to to anything they don't want to. I never said otherwise and I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth to the contrary. Where did I say that? Anyway. That's not the point. The point I was making is that as consumers we have every right to take the piss out of them and you seemed to be taking a line that we were stupid for doing so. So they don't have to include any backwards compatibility. Sure fine. But why not? I guess they want every household to sit on tier upon tier of obsolete tech in order to continue to play games they bought before. No convincing argument against this simple concession to their customers has been leveed here or elsewhere. So yeah, they are sticking a big middle finger at the consumer adding on ancillaries that their TVs already have at the expense of crap that people would actually want. While launching a full scale assault on the used game market.
BTW it's the used game market assault that really has folks pissed.
You have been extremely venomous and defensive as you have said I was personally attacking you. You words included a strong implication that I was being malicious. Incorrect. You also say that you never get emotionally involved in arguments like this but your posting history here has said the opposite. I misinterpreted nothing in you calling me malicious. I was not.
We may have talked past each other but it started in the main point by your taking an extremely aggressive stance against me for reasons I still don't know.
This would have gone a lot better if we actually knew each other before we started fighting. Fights between strangers are never pretty you see.
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MEdiscovery
Gunnery Chief
The discovery of a life time.
Posts: 93
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Post by MEdiscovery on Jun 6, 2013 23:24:29 GMT 1
OK, I will indulge this one last time before I insist that you take this to PMs if you really want to continue this. I know full well that they have no obligation to to anything they don't want to. I never said otherwise and I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth to the contrary. Where did I say that? Anyway. That's not the point. The point I was making is that as consumers we have every right to take the piss out of them and you seemed to be taking a line that we were stupid for doing so. So they don't have to include any backwards compatibility. Sure fine. But why not? I guess they want every household to sit on tier upon tier of obsolete tech in order to continue to play games they bought before. No convincing argument against this simple concession to their customers has been leveed here or elsewhere. So yeah, they are sticking a big middle finger at the consumer adding on ancillaries that their TVs already have at the expense of crap that people would actually want. While launching a full scale assault on the used game market. BTW it's the used game market assault that really has folks pissed. You have been extremely venomous and defensive as you have said I was personally attacking you. You words included a strong implication that I was being malicious. Incorrect. You also say that you never get emotionally involved in arguments like this but your posting history here has said the opposite. I misinterpreted nothing in you calling me malicious. I was not. We may have talked past each other but it started in the main point by your taking an extremely aggressive stance against me for reasons I still don't know. This would have gone a lot better if we actually knew each other before we started fighting. Fights between strangers are never pretty you see. Nor did I think you said that. I was explaining why the things you want won't happen or why the things you don't want are happening. I said that I found that the initial reaction of the gaming community concerning the Xbox One's emphasis on social networking and television was childish and immature. I never said the people were stupid for being upset. I have already explained why backwards compatibility is not technologically feasible or economical for the console developer. Designing a console to adapt to 10 year old games while maintaining the power said machines isn't simplistic, nor is it profitable. It is now the game developer's role to reproduce the old games you want. What do you think you will be able to do ten or twenty years from now? Play the same games you play today? I find it extremely unlikely. The current generation is more than eight years old now. As for the used gaming market, I have no say. Since I play on PC, I find myself using the online market more and more. Instead of fighting for the used games market, I would think it would be more reasonable to attack both Sony and Microsoft for the unreasonable marketplaces. Limited titles at the equivalent prices of a boxed copy is absurd. I would have thought more companies would want to compete with Steam. Used gaming market doesn't effect console developers too much though, so I fail to see why console developers would invest too much in DRM, unless game developers were pressuring them to do so. Again, my intention was not to appear malicious or venomous. Where did I say that you were personally attacking me? When did I say you malice was directed to me? I said you were maliciously opinionated against console developers, not against me. The reason I emphasized rereading my posts was because you claimed that these developers were producing the same console repetitiously, even despite my first post showing that the current hardware specs for both machines are equivalent to top-of-the-line gaming PCs. If you never said that these consoles are unchanging, then I apologize. I still cannot fathom how my posts are regarded as aggressive, but I think that is because I fully understand the intended tone that I wrote in. I have never defaced the character of anyone individual part of this forum, nor have I intended to do so. Fights, regardless, are obscene. I never actually intended this to devolve into a fight.
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Post by jklinders on Jun 6, 2013 23:34:08 GMT 1
You keep twisting my words and then act surprised that there is a fight. Childish and immature is a pretty close analogue for stupidity. Therefore you were suggesting that having the attitude is stupid. I know it's not simple to add the compatibility but it is wanted so maybe yeah just try to work it out otherwise you have people acting childish and stupid over it.
If you cannot fathom why attacking me personally three or four times in one post is considered by me to be aggressive then we have nothing more to talk about.
I'm gonna drop this as we are not seeing eye to eye. That is in no way any kind of acknowledgement that I have come around to your viewpoint I just see little point in continuing to debate someone who doesn't read what I say or realize how he is speaking to me.
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Post by Mr. Glow on Jun 6, 2013 23:42:22 GMT 1
I ain't wanna watch TV on my Xbox for the same reason I like to play games other than Beehive Bedlam.
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MEdiscovery
Gunnery Chief
The discovery of a life time.
Posts: 93
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Post by MEdiscovery on Jun 6, 2013 23:42:54 GMT 1
You keep twisting my words and then act surprised that there is a fight. Childish and immature is a pretty close analogue for stupidity. Therefore you were suggesting that having the attitude is stupid. I know it's not simple to add the compatibility but it is wanted so maybe yeah just try to work it out otherwise you have people acting childish and stupid over it. If you cannot fathom why attacking me personally three or four times in one post is considered by me to be aggressive then we have nothing more to talk about. I'm gonna drop this as we are not seeing eye to eye. That is in no way any kind of acknowledgement that I have come around to your viewpoint I just see little point in continuing to debate someone who doesn't read what I say or realize how he is speaking to me. How am I twisting your words? I would hardly say acting childish and immature is synonymous with stupidity. I view stupid people as educated, but willfully ignorant individuals. I do not think you are of that description "willfully ignorant", nor do I believe that the gaming community is of the same nature for being upset. It is where most of the anger is directed, and how it is displayed that completely eludes me. I still cannot find where I have attacked you personally, and I have read my posts several times over. Was it when I said you committed a fallacy by appealing to authority? If so, you were not and I apologize. Was it when I said Sterling was an obnoxious and unreasonable prick? I apologize. When I said you didn't read my posts? I don't even know how that is an insult. I am not trying to win anyone on any side. I have simply been trying to tell you why console developers are doing what they are doing, and speculating as to why fans are misdirecting their displeasure toward unimportant aspects of the console (like 3gb of RAM dedicated to the OS).
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Post by jklinders on Jun 6, 2013 23:43:00 GMT 1
lol
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Jun 6, 2013 23:50:19 GMT 1
I find it hilarious when people completely ignore a person's request to keep it to PM... *raising one eyebrow* most especially when it is the Mod's Request to keep it to PM...
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Shaider03
Gunnery Chief
My love for Tokusatsu will never die.
Posts: 80
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Post by Shaider03 on Jun 7, 2013 0:57:11 GMT 1
Of course they removed the passes now you have to pay a fee to play used games on the Xbox One. A fee with no known price. This tidbit is something that was omitted from the reveal. The one thing that had got my attention was the improved match making system. They barely talked about it and just went back to media stuff that people don't honestly care much about. At least not core gamers. In general Microsoft is lousy with floor shows if you go by site reviews.
Any who that reveal was just a waste and had a lot of the same old missteps of the past in it. I'll reserve further judgment till E3, but it feel's like it's a battle to see which counsel is less oppressive. I don’t plan to jump to slightly next gen until I’m given no choice. One funny thing that tends to happen with me is some how I always wound up with the two major counsel’s. Not at once of course but over time. I don’t know I feel a bigger loss in counsel revenue coming on. Part of me wants them to fail just to prove that people have indeed drawn a line in the sand and won’t take their bullshit anymore.
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