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Post by Tillian Panthesis on May 31, 2009 3:21:50 GMT 1
Alright, this been tormented me for a while now since the end of last year after I've handed in my (original) character assignment for Uni. I was reading about the fans complaint about the ME fan fiction back in the official ME forums when they discuss about fan fictions and one their complaints about Mary Sues and Self-Inserts. That took me quite a while to do intensive research about the meaning of "Mary Sues" and "Self Insert" before it gave me an encouragement to lay off writing back stories about Shepard for a while and concentrate on other characters to break off the bond a bit.
The thing is that normally the main protagonists in most stories came from a small part of us, even if it's original characters we produce. Hence it's like a tiny self-inserts.
Also the part about the Mary Sue bit. I'm still kinda confused about it. I can see the blatant examples in most fiction works I've read pass by but then there are some subtle examples that made kind of confused at the same time. Yes characters should be more "humanised" in some way by have flaws and stuff to make us relate more due to the fact we're not that perfect as human beings.
Anyway, the point is that after I've read through all of this and examples, debates about such things, I decided to put my The Human Flock story into Hiatus status due to the fact I'm a bit concerned that the Shepard in that story is seem to skirting the bounds of the Mary Sue and Self Inserts.
So tell me, what is the fine line between a good, enjoyable character and; a Mary Sue and Self Inserts? Because I'm a little sad at the moment, trying to figure out about fixing that fiction while still walking in the murky waters about those meaning.
And feel free to send me a msg on how to improve The Human Flock or whatever. That story is a mess atm.
Oh and while we're trying to discuss in this thread, please refrain from talking about the twitard series. We get, Bella is a blantant Self Insert Mary Sue that should be condamned into the 9th plane of hell. That discussion should be save for the twilightsucks.com forums.
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Post by Knightfall on May 31, 2009 10:51:28 GMT 1
Well, first off, I'd like to just call a timeout here so that we can firstly re-examine what Fanfiction should be. Hopefully this will help you out and shoo away the sadness. Pure and simple: Fanfiction is for fun. That's all. That's all it should ever be. For writers, it should be seen as a playground, and the various universes that we write for are the slides, monkey bars, and the merry-go-rounds that populate this playground. And like a playground, it doesn't belong to you. One can't walk to the nearby park and start ripping out the swings to take them home. That's when the police show up and charge you with stealing...errrr plagiarism in this case. When you take control of someone else's characters, you are essentially the puppet master. But, as Uncle Ben would say: With great power comes great responsibility...yeah, how many times have you heard that thrown at you? Some people use this power and create some very unique and entertaining stories with characters we all know and love. Others use it to play out their fantasy of being a part of the story. Others...use it to have various characters screw each other...But it is this second usage of such power, becoming a part of the story, where said power is therein abused in SOME instances. The most famous of which (or infamous, depending) is the Harry Potter fanfic "My Immortal" seen here: www.fanfiction.net/s/4659085/1/My_Immortal_ReturnsThis is a textbook example of a Mary Sue. Like...you CAN'T get any more Mary Sue than this. People have tried and failed miserably. Plato often spoke of the Forms, i.e. the absolute idea of something. This is the Form of a Mary Sue! Anyway, to get back on track: Mary Sue's and Marty Stu's. Can we completely avoid them? Absolutely not in a blatant sense. Every story we create is inspired and constructed within us. Even attempting to do away with these tropes is like trying to build a sand castle on a beach in New Guinea with your mind. It can't work, so you really shouldn't try. In every story I write, my characters act out a part of me or someone that has inspired me, because it cannot come from nothing. And in that sense, it's almost impossible NOT to create a Mary Sue. Arguably, this is done to a far greater extent in Fanfiction because that temptation to create an avatar for ourselves and have that avatar interact with our favorite characters from various mediums is far more prominent here. But I'm currently reading a book of the fantasy genre called "The Name of the Wind," a book that just screams Mary Sue with every page. The main character is just too good at anything he does. How many more characters are we going to see in fantasy who have powers on par with Neo from "The Matrix"? But! We here at the Mass Effect Fanfiction community have a problem. Bioware created a game with a character that has no character! We're forced to slip into Shepard's skin and to think as though we are looking through his/her eyes. So, we're technically trapped, because we are already committing the supposed sin of self-insertion before we even type up our stories. Because we are all Shepard! ...dun dun dun...All Shepard's are not created equal. So, to make a short point even longer, don't worry about falling into this trap, because if you're on this forum, you've already fallen into it; and it's not a bad thing! It comes down to this: if you're having fun writing "The Human Flock" then keep doing it. FF.net is a recreational website, and the worst thing you can do is apply rigid, self-imposed standards to a hobby that has no repercussions other than your own enjoyment. That'll just make it...un-fun? And don't even get me started on Sparkly Vampire Commune. You have no idea how many girls I've heard compare their boyfriends to Edward. Jebus.
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Post by daigowedd on May 31, 2009 11:05:29 GMT 1
I think the main difference between a Mary-Sue and a "proper" character is that in bad writing the plot serves the character, when it should be the other way round. If the world revolves around the character and only the main character's actions change the world, then you've got a problem.
The main issue here is that in pretty much every video game, the protagonist is by very definition a Mary-Sue/Marty Stu, because, not only are they the window on which the player looks into the world, they are the only ones that can initiate change in the game world. When writing fan fiction for video games, we need to introduce far more challenge, personality flaws and let other characters share the action.
Still, I wouldn't worry too much about the MS stuff, every-body's written one at someone point and making fun of them can be hilarious.
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Post by Mister Buch on May 31, 2009 11:52:25 GMT 1
First off, Mary Sues. Interestingly Tillian I actually had to look up this term a month or so ago when you sent me 'Little Wing' to read. I'd never heard of it but now I understand why a Star Wars parody I love has a protagonist named 'Marisu'.
Certainly we shoud all try to avoid making characters who are absolutely perfect and wonderful. They should have flaws because they should be realistic. And a lot of the best stories are ones where the protagonist has to overcome a part of themselves as an antagonist. But-
On the other hand, let's not worry about it too much. For one thing - this is Mass Effect. By her background and actions alone, Commander Shepard is pretty much already a big fat Mary Sue. I try to make her a bit nasty sometimes and have her give in to anger just to balance her out. At the end of the day, she's a good-looking, gifted, thirty-year-old space marine who overcame impossible odds to become the first human intergalactic secret agent and save the Galaxy singlehandedly. There's just nothing you can do about Shepard but try to temper her a bit.
And another thing is that Mary Sues aren't necssarily a bad thing, espescially in adventure stories like ME. Think of Indiana Jones. The man is the epitome of greatness, and I love him. His one flaw is a fear of snakes, which he usually overcomes wihout much of a problem. So don't worry too much about a hero being a Mary Sue.
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Self-inserts are interesting. Again I think there is a time and a place for this. There is nothing wrong with drawing inspiration and character development from your own history and feelings. Espescially if, like all of us, you're still young. Oscar Wilde said, "In every first novel the hero is the author, as either Christ or Faust". His own first novel had him as Faust - The Picture of Dorian Gray. (My first novel did too!)
So I think you should be careful with self-inserts. You can make the character too obviously yourself which shows little imagination, or you could make every character yourself, which is no good because they're too similar.
Drawing from the self is a good thing. But you have to be careful not to overdo things. I think we all make that mistake.
In fan-fiction, perhaps self-insert characters are much more noticable because the reader doesn't already know them. So they stick out and mess it up. It's easier to get away with, and to justify, a self-insert character in an original work.
Has anyone ever 'inserted' someone else they know? I do this a lot, and often feel bad about it and remove the character. --
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Post by Knightfall on May 31, 2009 20:03:59 GMT 1
I agree with everything this man has said!
Harumph!
The point you brought up about the hero being either totally good or despicably evil is a rather interesting one. We talk about Brent Weeks' books a lot (the punk) and he has a hero that might as well be Karate Jesus. He jumped around, killed a lot of baddies, saved the world, and got the girl, who was literally a pair of walking, talking breasts. If that's not a storybook ending, I don't know what is.
The other example of a first time author doing this is the aforementioned "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss. You ever hear a story where a guy talks about what he's done in life and you know--just KNOW--that he's exaggerating the hell out of it? "I killed fiddy men in Nam, rescued twenty kittens from a burning house, and I was the one who told Obama he should run for President. He was a bit hesitant at first, but I have a way with words." That's what this book is. The character can do no wrong. He runs circles around all his teachers and fellow students at the University, casts spells like a champ, and just...always wins everything.
Now, these MIGHT not be examples of self-insertion, but they are definitely almost-Neo's. This didn't make for a series of bad novels. Far from it, actually. Both of these authors are doing very well in the fantasy genre, with Rothfuss being heralded as the next Tolkien or Jordan or Martin of the genre (which I do not agree with).
But this is the difference between making a memorable novel with characters you can identify with, and making a novel that's just there to impress and amaze. Neither are bad, but you should always be striving to put the character deeper into your story. And all of the stories that I've fallen in love with have deeply-flawed protagonists, or gray characters.
An example is a book that Mister Buch suggested, "Star Wars: Shatterpoint" in which Mace Windu kinda pulls a Bindo.
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And to answer the question, I make it a habit of putting friends and family into the action of whatever story I'm creating. Wrote a novel where the main characters emulated the conversations and fights that my friend and I have, and I wrote a short story where the protagonist was heavily influenced on Mister Buch's crazy British ways. The way I figure it, a story that doesn't celebrate all of the things you've experienced in your life isn't a story worth writing.
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Post by Mister Buch on May 31, 2009 20:23:06 GMT 1
The way I figure it, a story that doesn't celebrate all of the things you've experienced in your life isn't a story worth writing. My idiot American friend is right! No really that's a fine point, there, well put. So what character was inspired by my crazy British ways? And also, what crazy British ways are these? Is it the pipe and the tea? You know, I worry sometimes that you've gotten a bad idea of what the British are like through talking to me. I should point out that I am somewhat more stereotypical than most of us.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Jun 2, 2009 10:11:39 GMT 1
That's true... Fan Fiction more of a playground for writers... I think I should take it easy then.
You have to be kidding me? No one can make the ultimate Mary Sue that could topple over Ebony? Well that... speechless.
Anyway interesting point taken about Serf Inserts. Authors are like artist. They draw their own experiances and PoV in life into their subconcious before they lay it down on a piece of paper (or a blank document). Like Artist, authors tend to express themselves through words, so basically we can't excatly avoid the whole self-insert thing altogether. I think it all comes down to a fine line between inspirations and a blantant self inserts is to look over the stories and character in a observation stance.
I suppose not all mary sues are bad. It depends how the writer is able to pull off an impressive stunt. I re-call my all time favourite Novel/film Legend of the Condor Heroes Has two main protagonists that are skirting along the line of Mary Sue and Marty Stu. The hero is a dim-witted, farmer boy who managed to get the girl and becomes one of the great martial Arts heros of it's era while his love interest is a sharp, tactful and (dare I say) beautiful girl who runs away from her idlystic island. Despite their faults aren't as bad as most of the other characters in the story, I've still managed to like them at the end of the book. I guess the point is that the story is should be the one that force the characters to dealt with the problems, not the other way around. Even Indiana jones has to bend down to the plot from I've recalled in the early films.
Anyways, thanks for the advice guys, I've really appresiated.
Btw Mr. Buch. You may proclaim to be a stereotypical Brit but at least you're a nice Brit, not like the Mean Brit as Yahtzee from Zero Punctuation
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Post by Mister Buch on Jun 2, 2009 11:22:48 GMT 1
I'm reading a novel now by the comedian Steve Martin, and one of the characters is quite clearly Steve Martin. I know he adapted it into a film later, so that may be why - but I wanted to point out th self-insert. It doesn't bother me.
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