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Post by lieden on Aug 26, 2010 15:03:28 GMT 1
I like your take on EDI here; how she gradually becomes aware, interacts with the ship and its systems, the hints at her advancing her consciousness. I also like how the concerns of various members of the crew are revealed through her observations. It's a clever and unassuming device, putting the right amount of distance.
Style- or voice-wise, you've won me over in this story (and I'm always difficult with that aspect of writing! :p). Perhaps in some places the metaphors are somewhat crowded; but nothing excessive.
A few concerns about characterisation:
While I like the opening paragraph very much, in-game it is after her integration with the Normandy that EDI begins to feel as though she is the ship itself; I am mainly referring to the metaphor of her bones unclothed. Cf. to the first conversation with her after Joker's mini-mission, where (if I remember correctly) she alludes to the Normandy's hull as her skin; it something new to her at that time.
Also, there are perhaps some issues regarding the first question EDI asks of Joker. I imagine AIs would always be clear in their thought processes as well as statements, aware of what kind of data they are missing. The fact that "she does not understand", is more like human confusion. Her "request for clarification" is in fact not so straightforward: it's not clear if she's asking out of doubt (assuming that Joker's Vrolic syndrome makes him less than the most capable pilot she would be given), or because she needs "to know the limitations" of her crew. These are two different sets of information. Additionally, doubt sounds like a very human thing, which, perhaps, could be something EDI would develop later. But at first, it would all be data, the AI's own evaluations and trust in its capacity to do so.
So overall, I think you might get carried away EDI's personification in some places and treat her more as human and less as an AI (though granted, it's a challenge to try to figure out what an AI thinks like).
All in all, however, good work! I enjoyed this fic.
— typo spotted: it's the Thanix cannon, with an i.
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Post by jklinders on Aug 26, 2010 15:17:46 GMT 1
I can't add much to what was already written. I enjoyed the work greatly. EDI became interesting to me only after I found out she was not going to be a hidden boogieman. Crazy homicidal AIs have been done to death already in this setting.
Thank you for the good read. ;D
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Post by Nemonus on Aug 26, 2010 17:15:03 GMT 1
lol you're welcome.
Thanks for the crit (and compliments) leiden. "Thanax" was just a mark of my inexperience and it's now been fixed-- I also think you're right about EDI acting too human in the beginning. That takes away from the theme of her gaining more "human-ness" throughout. (I love writing artificial intelligence because of the unique voice, but sometimes it's baffling to do right!)
I've changed the paragraph in the beginning a bit to be less fanciful: She wakes up in darkness, in drydock with all systems running green and many camera-eyes closed....She has been built in thin, shining wire bundles and placed in a node in each room. and added She remembers waking up in darkness, in space with bones unclothed and eyes closed. She has been built in strands and wire-bundles as ropey as human hair and set into the ship’s skin. She is its veins. to the end instead. I've also, on the advice of another beta, ended with "ship cancer" instead of "goodnight"--what do you think? She thought the ending was too abrupt.
Hmm, the conversation with Joker. Her hesitance in the beginning was definitely me trying to give natural speech rhythms to the talk, but seeing as she's an AI and isn't natural at all....
Ah yes, EDI's "straightforward" request. I should fix that; not sure how yet, but I'll work on her first line there.
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Post by lieden on Aug 26, 2010 20:09:54 GMT 1
You're welcome! I had got Thanix wrong at some point, too, spelt it with a double 'n'. :} Even when playing with subtitles one can remember things wrong!
I'm not sure about the changes you mention, because I got a little confused with what is new, replaced/moved in the first paragraph. Could you get this a little clearer?
I think the ending is ok, but would perhaps be a nice twist, and fittingly abrupt, if instead of 'Goodnight', she said her usual 'Logging you out, Shepard.'
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Post by Nemonus on Aug 27, 2010 3:56:18 GMT 1
That's true!
Okay, the first paragraph would read like this:
In the beginning are her eyes—cameras, windows, viewports. She wakes up in darkness, in drydock with all systems running green and many camera-eyes closed. The core of her exists before that; she can pull in data that streams faster and more precisely than light. It is integral to her design that parts of her were ensconced even before the ship had all its walls. She has been built in thin, shining wire bundles and placed in a node in each room.
And the end like this:
EDI remembers her own disease. She can speak to the guns clearly. Organic being are more difficult; they speak their own language. Try to compress it into zeroes and ones and phrase-shifting paradigms, and it collapses under its own absurdity. A system would need to be flawed and random to truly understand. She remembers waking up in darkness, in space with bones unclothed and eyes closed. She has been built in strands and wire-bundles as ropey as human hair and set into the ship’s skin. She is its veins. (A long time ago, Mr. Moreau said “It’s like ship cancer.”) Camera 12 [Loft]: Shepard smiles into the darkness. There are more missions pending in her logbook but the picture is back in its place, standing up on the desk. “Goodnight, EDI.” “Logging you out, Shepard.”
Because btw I lovelovelove that ending, and can I plz steal it thx? Really, it's a nice idea--a nice shock to remember that she's a computer by--if she responds like that. ^_^ Thanks so much for your help.
I'm still not quite sure what to do with her first convo with Joker, but will continue to think about it.
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Post by lieden on Aug 27, 2010 17:12:50 GMT 1
By all means keep that ending, if you like the idea. First paragraph reads okay. Ending paragraph: don't forget the plural -s in "organic beings". Also, I'm not sure the lines "She remembers waking up in darkness, in space with bones unclothed and eyes closed. She has been built in strands and wire-bundles as ropey as human hair and set into the ship’s skin. She is its veins." quite fit where you put them, especially in the present and present perfect tense. You'd have to tie it bit tighter with the rest. On the side, I'm very fond of the line "Try to compress it into zeroes and ones and phrase-shifting paradigms, and it collapses under its own absurdity." -- among several others in this little fic.
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Post by Nemonus on Aug 28, 2010 22:29:02 GMT 1
Argh. Tense. Okay, I'll look at that again!
Thank you!
And for the conversation. This intelligent back-and-forth is exactly why I put this story here first instead of on FFN.
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Post by lieden on Aug 29, 2010 5:56:18 GMT 1
My pleasure!
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Post by Nemonus on Aug 29, 2010 6:39:37 GMT 1
The new "official" version is on FFN here www.fanfiction.net/s/6278826/1/Remora, with some minor changes based on your last post, as well as other random stuff I just thought of (such a standardization of whether EDI calls him Moreau/Jeff/Joker, since that was a big part of her characterization in the game.)
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Post by lieden on Aug 30, 2010 13:00:26 GMT 1
I think you've wrapped this up quite nicely. Just left you a review at FF.net. Nitpicker me would still point out a couple more minor issues, but none of them is such a big deal if you want to call this finished!
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Post by Nemonus on Aug 30, 2010 16:54:32 GMT 1
If they're punctuation/grammar/typos, throw them my way. Content-wise I want to let it sit a bit.
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Post by lieden on Aug 30, 2010 18:34:05 GMT 1
It's content / characterisation stuff, and rather minor. Nothing requiring immediate attention. ;)
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Post by Nemonus on Sept 3, 2010 18:29:46 GMT 1
I don't know whether knowing or not knowing is worse. Eh. Do tell. I want to be able to not worry about characterization when I write in this fandom. There's so much dialogue that I find myself forgetting stuff that only ever comes up once.
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Post by lieden on Sept 4, 2010 21:18:41 GMT 1
Okay, re-read it once more to make sure: at the reception on the Citadel after Sovereign was destroyed Unless I'm wrong, the Presidium was a wreck after Sovereign's attack. Although I think I remember Shepard meeting up with Anderson/Udina at the end of the game and everything looked pristine clean. :p So while my logic says there couldn't possibly be a reception right away, the game devs apparently disagreed! Shepard equals commander, equals decisive, authoritative, with even, direct voice modulation. This definition is rather narrow and situationally bound, and might cause some problems in various situations, perhaps. EDI remembers her own disease. While Joker points out that EDI is "like ship cancer" and Miranda says something in a similar vein, we don't see where EDI might have made such a deduction (i.e. that she is/has a disease). But like I said, it's all just minor stuff. :)
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Post by Nemonus on Sept 5, 2010 1:57:42 GMT 1
Ah, now that I covered. "The Citadel presidium is in the background, the water already scrubbed clean." I figure the Keepers are fixing the place up preternaturally quickly...or at least that's the only way to explain that scene with Andersen. Also I wanted there to be a reception there. : P
EDI's equations were also meant as less literal than I think you're taking them, but I can see how that would be confusing.
Argh, EDI-as-disease. My great failure. I realize that part came out of nowhere. I just couldn't find a way for it not to! I wanted that to be so good. XD
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