|
Post by Clint Johnston on Dec 5, 2012 14:55:51 GMT 1
I just posted this on Facebook, and given various discussions we've had in the past, I thought I'd share it here. Several thoughts regarding this blog posting which is the source of controversy in the news (I'm posting the original source): www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-page/west-point-religious-freedom_b_2232279.html1 ) This makes me nervous. Really, of all the things to quit over, you quit over there being too many Christian things? What if someone decides the army isn't the only place for this type of fight? 2 ) I'm impressed that he's diving off the deep end for this. He knows he's torching a career he's invested in and may be in the hole for a lot of money. That takes guts. 3 ) I'm not entirely sure he's wrong. The Jesus I know doesn't force people to pray. He doesn't demand that they be punished if they won't believe (Eventually, yes, but here and now? No). This is the whole point of Christ's grace and his redemption. No one is supposed to be forced into it. And inaction on the part of people who are supposed to be defending innocents (as he claims of the Chaplain) is reprehensible. I hope he reconsiders his spiritual position somewhere down the road and gets to know the Jesus I know, love, and respect.
|
|
|
Post by jklinders on Dec 5, 2012 20:58:42 GMT 1
I read the article and the links that there were in it. That was quite a bit of reading.
To point one. If you were in an institution that had a lot of privilege and career opportunity attached to it that required as part of the education to pray to Mecca 3 times a day and participate in Islamic ritual at the expense of your own beliefs, how would you feel about that? I have a serious objection to some of the loaded language some of the officers gave, like "How can you claim to be moral when you do not believe in God?" Equating belief with morals is huge logical fallacy and many terrible things have been done in God's name. This guy makes a great point. A school that trains the future generals who are supposed to protect the US Constitution should not be complicit in a fundamental violation of it. That being separation of church and state.
I have no argument against points 2 and most of three as I am in a large part in agreement with you. I hope this turn a few heads and gets folks thinking. I always get a little twitchy when anyone mixes religion and military and politics and having this at West Point is a potentially poisonous combination that I am supremely uncomfortable with.
I would add that his beliefs are his own to come to as he sees fit. I know you feel that way too Clint, but being forced into it on an institutional level is a violation of his rights. I applaud him.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Buch on Dec 5, 2012 23:28:08 GMT 1
Mandatory prayer is a vile thing and in opposition to American human rights, whether you think the God in question is real or not. I'm all in favour. It's good to take a stand like this, and brave too.
|
|
|
Post by Warhammer Gorvar on Dec 5, 2012 23:31:53 GMT 1
Question, didnt the Romans back in the day of ol' swashbucklin' and sandals lost a couple of battles because they had to pray first to their gods?
I'm going to agree with Buch here, religon is a private thing and not something that should come anywhere near Goverments or Military or anything that has power. Look at the Catholic Church up until the Reformation, seriously.
|
|
|
Post by jklinders on Dec 5, 2012 23:34:10 GMT 1
Why stop at the Reformation? Sure they have calmed down a bit but they are just as self righteous now as they were 1000 years ago.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Buch on Dec 5, 2012 23:36:38 GMT 1
I think religion (or any other superstitious belief system) is dangerous and folly enough when it's completely voluntary. Certain religions have a bit of a history with indoctrination by any means, and it needs to be stamped out now that we thankfully worship freedom as much as ancient middle-eastern books.
But that's really beside the point. I wouldn't stand by a school that enforced any of my 'beliefs' or philsophical views or practices either. Forcing a way of thinking on a person is deeply wrong, and as the man says, goes against what America (and other fine democracies) is all about.
|
|
|
Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Dec 6, 2012 7:45:41 GMT 1
I can't speak for the Academies, but I do know that religious participation in the military is NOT mandatory. My best friend and blood brother, who I met in tech school, is a straight-up atheist. Never once did he take shit for not believing in God.
My take on this is that this kid gets offended by every little thing that goes on around him. His link to the 3rd Regiment Shield bitches about the Coat of Arms shown on the shield. And the motto "strong minds, strong bodies, and strong faith" is NOT strictly religious as faith is merely belief in that which is not proven. So it can be said that the atheists have faith that God does NOT exist. Or it could be interpreted as having strong faith in the men and women he commands.
He's also claiming to know what Chaplains are legally allowed to do: something that is highly arrogant of him.
The other complaints about a new organization fighting for recognition and funding could have nothing to do with military prejudice and everything to do institutional inertia. In tech school, I had to fight tooth and nail to set up a basic self-defense course for those who were interested. Even with a Major and a Lt Colonel backing me, it still took months of red tape to get the seemingly simple program established. And once it was established, it was on me to make things happen. I'm not saying that's what's going on with those atheist groups, but it's another possible explanation.
And even though he's saying he initiated an Equal Opportunity investigation and has the backing of the Commandant, he's weaseling out instead of seeing things through.
As a side note: service academies like West Point amount to 4 years of boot camp with college courses mixed in. If he can't handle that kind of stress, he has no business in the military. Let's face it: if he gets offended by people practicing their faith, then how would he have dealt with someone trying to shoot him in the face?
Oh, and some of the things he omits is that those passes that the choirs and so on get? They pay for it with additional duties (on top of their normal duties) which seriously reduces the free time they have to themselves on any given day.
All in all, despite what honestly could be legitimate complaints and grievances, I see this kid as nothing more than a whiny coward who truly has no place in the military and may he not hit his ass on the way out the door.
(Please note that I have no dog in this particular fight, I'm just showing what my understanding of the military is from an active duty member's standpoint and countering some of the more innane-sounding arguments with some plausible alternatives.)
|
|
|
Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Dec 6, 2012 7:56:03 GMT 1
Oh, and to add in a tidbit of info: Cadets at the academies can resign free-and-clear before they begin their Junior year. On the first day of classes for that year, they take the Oath of Office and are obligated to finish their term of service. If it was as bad as he's claiming, then why didn't he just ditch before taking the oath and not a couple months before his ass went out on the line?
Smells fishy as hell to me and adds in to him being a gutless coward who just lost his honor in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by jklinders on Dec 6, 2012 19:14:42 GMT 1
If he cannot afford to pay the tuition he'll still have to serve. He said as much in the article. Given the examples cited in the attached petition, I can't help but think there is something to it. You are of course entitled to your opinion. I respectfully disagree with it completely.
|
|
|
Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Dec 6, 2012 21:13:33 GMT 1
I just can't help but think of groups like the Tuskeegee Airmen and the Buffalo Soldiers who faced far worse than what he's describing, but stuck it out.
Also, I was only bringing up counterpoints to his grievances that are equally plausible.
Finally, my opinion of him remains the same: instead of seeing things through, he wants to run away and leave others to fight his fight. Hardly what I consider honourable behaviour.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Buch on Dec 6, 2012 22:38:56 GMT 1
In a surprise twist, I disagree utterly with Iron's opinion on this. Like, I would like to strangle him, kind of disagree.
|
|
|
Post by Clint Johnston on Dec 6, 2012 23:02:56 GMT 1
Shocking! Iron has a good point. Though I'm still against the accused forced faith.
|
|
|
Post by Warhammer Gorvar on Dec 7, 2012 0:02:02 GMT 1
Well Iron is in the army, so I can see where he is coming from. But I disagree simply because....well, I just dont like the army in general. I know, we need them for disasters and in case somebody invades and such...but i;m a stone;s throw away from Ypers so I know how bad wars can be. I dont want to put words in Buch;s mouth here but Europeans at least have a big fear of war, WWI and II are still in our memory and the "Never Again" mentality is still in here. hell the Germans still have war guilt!
So I admit I am biased towards the military, but again I can see where meironmaiden is coming from. I disagree with forced religon and going to get yourself shot.
|
|
|
Post by jklinders on Dec 7, 2012 0:09:37 GMT 1
It is a valid point. he might be turning the resignation and public awareness into part of the fight. this is not WWII, the stakes are not that high. The Tuskagee airmen had a lot of shit to go through, but a far more valid reason to want to work through it. Not the same thing at all. There is no great war of our time to be fighting in. It's a different way of getting the message out.
Sometimes when you are inside the system all you can do is watch it go to shit. Free from the culture that exists there he is free to speak his mind. "those who doeth evil fear the light."
My disagreement stands.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Buch on Dec 7, 2012 1:39:27 GMT 1
I'm not opposed to the military, not at all. I'm a pacifist, but not an idiot. If innocents are being attacked, I'll be the first in line to engage the reptile brain, crack people's skulls open with rocks and enjoy it. I know there have been some terrible and pointless wars in recent history, but that's the fault of tyrants and empire-builders, not soldiers. Soldiers are necessary for peace and order, and they will be until we evolve into floating brain guys. I admire the inherant bravery and dignity of anyone who chooses to protect. (But that's not the only reason to sign-up, more on that later.)
My opposition here isn't that I just oppose armed forces. It's with the idea that by leaving an institution he finds morally reprehsible and is deserting him, our man here is shirking duty. The Tuskeegee airmen were fighting a bloody World War against a massive and all-conquering Fascist empire. Plus they wanted to wear the uniform. This is happening in 2012 and he does not. No duty is being shirked, by him anyway. West Point has a duty ro respect human rights and the religious freedom of its men, and THAT is the only dishonour here. If this guy were leaving WW2, I might - might - agree that his rights are less important than his work. But he's not. He's a free man, an American, and Americans may leave their job if their boss breaks their rights.
I like the military a lot. What I don't like, what I find reprehensible, is soliders who sign up because they want to shoot guns, kill dudes, look like a big man, have your buddy's back no matter what he's doing, and follow any order they get no matter what village they're destroying, rather than protect. The kind of idiot, arrogant, aggressive, hyena pack attitude that sadly leads so many people to join the army (and the police) when they don't deserve the honour of the uniform.
Politics has a similar problem. The job attracts crooks and salesmen when it needs leaders. The military attracts bullies when it deserves heroes. I have no solution but that's the way it is.
Of course it could well be that our man is leaving for some other reason, but why assume cowardice? And yeah he could have quit in his first year, but he didn't.
Someone who fights for what he and I think is right has all the respect I can give. Someone who fights for what he thinks is right and I don't? He has my respect, but nothing else. But someone who fights for what he thinks is wrong? Now that's the real coward. Someone who tries to make a guy wear a uniform he opposes - he's something worse.
|
|