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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Nov 25, 2012 18:25:56 GMT 1
Well back to the topic.
Good for him, hope he recovers and what's injured in his head, doesn't affect his daily life. He's not the first to survive from a terrible head injury.
A few years ago, someone got impaled to the head while working on the railway. He survived, but then the down side began when his personality changes for worse due to a few parts in his brain were disabled permanently that made him a pleasant person in the first place. It's not a pretty prospect to think about it honestly.
I just hope that same scenario didn't fall onto that man, that's what I'm saying.
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Post by Warhammer Gorvar on Nov 25, 2012 19:53:26 GMT 1
I recall having read that, tho I think it happend in the 30-ties or something...
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Post by Clint Johnston on Nov 25, 2012 21:56:40 GMT 1
ROFL. Wow. And I didn't have anything to do with it this time.
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Post by Mister Buch on Nov 25, 2012 22:18:03 GMT 1
Sorry Lily - I wasn't trying to have a go at you. It was the article that set me off.
I think that use of the word 'miracle' in the news and in conversation is an insidious way of pushing religions into people's heads.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Nov 25, 2012 22:19:25 GMT 1
I use the word miracle a lot - and am never using it in a religious manner... just a fair warning... ;D
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Post by Mister Buch on Nov 25, 2012 22:22:23 GMT 1
Well I'm not going to call you up on it every time! But I think the fact that that word has entered our vocabularily to describe good fortune is very insidious, very tricky. It's no more nasty than 'Thank God' or whatever, but you know, it's clever and that particular one annoys me.
Slip your faith into the common vocabulary - call a happy event a 'miracle' in the news, and people will keep talking about miracles, subtly keeping the religion alive in people's subconscious.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Nov 26, 2012 0:47:13 GMT 1
But, Mister Buch... other deities from other faiths can make 'miracles', too, right? Not just the Christian God? What about the Greek gods and the Norse gods? And others? Can they not make 'miraculous' things happen?
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Post by Mr. Glow on Nov 26, 2012 0:49:52 GMT 1
The Greek gods were too busy raping and dicking over humans to do any miracles.
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Post by Mister Buch on Nov 26, 2012 0:53:30 GMT 1
Lily - Well no, because they also almost certainly don't exist.
My own opinions about literal miracles and their existence or lack of aside - my point was about false ones. It's that when Jeff Q Fox News Man calls something a 'miracle', he's very subtly perpetuating a mass acceptance and social norm of Christianity. Some people will hear him and think he means it literally and think that the Christian God literally acted in the case. Others won't notice the suggestion at all. But their brains will. They'll briefly think about the God of the Western world and they'll probably briefly feel gratitude towards him, or awe at him, or fear of him. They'll associae him, for a moment, with the event.
I don't think anybody listening will hear the use of the word and further their belief in Zeus, because nobody believes in him already, or would really consider it seriously no matter how much you suggested his influence today. In America, in the Western world, the word miracle is pretty much hr exclusive domain of the Abrahamic religions, and it's them that will be very sneakily, very slightly backed-up every time somebody calls 'miracle' on a piece of good luck.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Nov 26, 2012 1:04:07 GMT 1
Hmm. Well. I'd really rather not get into the Great Debate, as I am certain my own faith / beliefs are not among the norm here - and in fact I believe I am quite firmly among the minority here... but, I can honestly say my first thought when I hear the word 'miracle' is not to think of the Christian God... also, who's to say the Greek deities didn't exist? If God (the Christian one) exists, then why not all the others?
And, Mr Glow - the Greek gods were not perfect - and they could be assholes a lot of the time - but they also did a lot of good for humans... well, the humans they liked, anyways... ;D
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Post by Mister Buch on Nov 26, 2012 1:07:29 GMT 1
I didn't know you had a religion, Lily.
I don't mean to insult religions, but it's hard not to discredit something when you think it's a dangerous, corrupting delusion / cult. I really don't mean to be rude about it, but I don't particularly respect it. And I don't like the perpetuation of such concepts as miracles, because I don't like any of the (unscientific, assuming and willfully ignorant, usually ancient) mythological belief systems that they're a part of.
About the Greek Gods - I rather like that particular belief system! It makes a lot more sense and 'fits' what we know about the real world very nicely. Why would the creators allow such diversity and conflict? There are lots of them. Why would they allow unjust hardship and cruelty? They don't care - they're jerks, like us, but larger and smarter. What happens after we die? Something unpleasant and monotonous - not much.
Those are the kind of Gods I can kinda, kinda see as a possibility.
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Post by Mister Buch on Nov 26, 2012 1:17:46 GMT 1
It's hard for me to talk about atheism and religion without yelling at people. For some reason I find it immensely frustrating to see what I think is ignorance and not be able to correct it by simply pointing to facts.
A rule of thumb I like is: "If it requires belief, it's probably a lie".
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Post by jklinders on Nov 26, 2012 1:18:22 GMT 1
Everyone has has a religion. If religion is a set of beliefs that cannot be proven concerning what happens in the unknowable places of life (after death for example) then even atheism counts as a religion in my eyes. I like to toss that one at rabid atheists who insist on shoving their beliefs into my face as obnoxiously as the worst offenders among the faithful.
That's just my interpretation of what constitutes a religion though. I have been disagreed with on that but too bad. I feel that if you have any kind of belief not backed with scientific certainty, which I should add includes a lack of belief in life after death, then you are indeed acting on faith and therefore have a religion. The religion of unbelief to be sure but it is there.
Definitely my inner troll coming out here.
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Post by Mister Buch on Nov 26, 2012 1:23:37 GMT 1
Please don't say atheism is a religion. Look at the name. A-theism. Absense of religion. It's like saying an empty box is full. A belief - an opinion, more accurately - is not the same thing as a religion. Atheism is an opinion - there are no organisations, no belief sets, no rituals, no shared belief. Only a similar opinion that there are no Gods. That is not a religion, any more than 'not liking Van Halen' is a religion, or 'not believing in vampires'.
People who shove their beliefs, or lack of, in your face..... I actually kind of like that. Maybe because I'm one of them. But particularly when it comes to religious people. I feel like if a person literally believes that I'm going to hell unless I join his group and share his belief -- then that guy is kind of a jerk if he knows me and never attempts to convert me! This guy believes I'm going to eternal torment, and has not attempted to prevent that! I know I would try to convert my friends, if I thought Heaven and Hell existed.
I kind of respect the religious who shove it in my face. If I believed in that incredible, massively world-view-shattering stuff, I would want people to know about it. Similarly - as a guy who is pretty much certain that there is NO god (or rather no decent reason to beleive in one as yet) I want to tell people that too. It's a truth I'm all but certain of, and one of massive importance for the world, and our lives. I want people to be aware that religions are imaginary.
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Linders, you say that to you a religious notion is anything that cannot be disproved? That's odd. Why the onus on disproof instead of proof?
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Post by jklinders on Nov 26, 2012 1:33:15 GMT 1
Atheists are constantly trying to spread the their own personal belief, which just happens to be a lack of belief in peoples faces. They are trying to recruit for the faithful just like everyone else. The only thing they lack is tax free status. Just look at all the meaningless bullshit legal action being done by these groups in the US, going after any hint of God on public buildings and whatnot. I believe in the separation of church and state but these people are fucking loonies.
I can already tell there is no chance of agreement here. I agree with your opinion of what organized religion is. But I disagree with the assertion that atheism does not count as one. By all definitions it is. They have faith, not proof that there is no God. Until proof replaces faith it is a religion. Also, the meaning of the name ironically means nothing. Just like the the name Scientology does not mean there is any basis in science in that faith. Scientologists are about as anti science as a religion gets but science is still in the name.
Your serve Buch.
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