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Post by lieden on Aug 22, 2010 7:19:56 GMT 1
Mass Effect draws from various sci-fi traditions (and pays several tributes on the side while at it), but I just came across this summary of the Heritage Universe series by Charles Sheffield (1935-2002) today, and thought it was interesting to share: The Heritage Universe is a fictional setting created by Charles Sheffield for a series of science fiction novels. The date of the setting is several thousand years into the future, during a time when human space colonization has filled much of the local spiral arm of the galaxy. The primary feature of this universe are a series of immense engineering artifacts constructed by an ancient race referred to as The Builders. The Builders, however, are no longer visibly present in the universe.
If you've got any other influences in mind, please share! By the way, has anyone read Charles Sheffield, and if so -- any recommendations on specific books?
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Post by Knightfall on Aug 22, 2010 10:17:33 GMT 1
There's a part in Contact (the movie, at least...and Spoiler Alert), where the main character is transported across the galaxy through a series of gyroscopic devices constructed eons ago. These devices are supposedly so old that the super-advanced race of aliens that use them don't even know who built them. o.O
When I rewatched that movie, I couldn't believe Mass Effect would so blatantly rip off that bit, down to the gyroscopic design. I used to think that was one of the more unique parts of the game. xD
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Post by lieden on Aug 22, 2010 14:17:44 GMT 1
Sometimes I wonder whether, in making a setting, more effort has to go to avoiding ripping off other settings than to anything else! In the earlier days of sci-fi, most stuff was made up by writers who were heavily into science and engineering and had a highly innovative character. Anyone in our generation attempting to write sci-fi has this huge pool of themes and concepts that have almost become folklore. Originality has become significantly harder!
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Post by jklinders on Aug 22, 2010 14:26:24 GMT 1
It is pretty important to note also that the old adage "the more things change the more they stay the same" holds true as well. There needs to be some sense of familiarity to ground the audience. Move to far out to left field your audience may balk at following you. Sci-fi has been cannibalizing itself since before I was born. Not surprising ME has "borrowed" a few ideas.
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Post by Knightfall on Aug 23, 2010 3:17:10 GMT 1
It is pretty important to note also that the old adage "the more things change the more they stay the same" holds true as well. There needs to be some sense of familiarity to ground the audience. Move to far out to left field your audience may balk at following you. Sci-fi has been cannibalizing itself since before I was born. Not surprising ME has "borrowed" a few ideas. This. I think the problem is that authors these days are either afraid, or unwilling to try something unique in science fiction, since it has pretty much "come of age" in recent decades. A lot of conventions are almost set in stone to the point where you're finding science fiction authors either quitting or driving their series into the dust (Orson Scott Card). It's the same reason that the big trend in fantasy is to make political fantasy or fantasy fiction sans orcs and elves. It's also the reason the Star Wars section at my local bookstore dwarfs the proper science fiction section. To be 100% honest, I've come to the conclusion that The Chronicles of Riddick series is some of the best/original science fiction to come around in some time. I watched both movies the other day, and was amazed at how much work was put into them. They're certainly not movies that I'd put my feet up every weekend to watch, but that filmmaker is the kind of speculative type we desperately need. xD
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Post by jklinders on Aug 23, 2010 3:40:01 GMT 1
Simply put Pitch Black was brilliant. One of the cooler things about that movie is that the only character that did not have some nasty secret was Riddick himself. He never made any lies about what he was.
The Chronicles of Riddick greatly surpassed my admittedly low expectations.
Problem is neither movie really told much about the setting itself. We saw a few interstellar slums but no real idea of culture so it is not really well fleshed out. So I could not say how original it was simply because there was very little meat on the bones.
Sort of like Soldier with Kurt Russel(good movie-if a little depressing) You get a couple of tantalizing glimpses but no more.
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Post by Knightfall on Aug 23, 2010 3:59:44 GMT 1
Very true. It felt like the third movie in a trilogy, since he went from fighting creatures who come out at night to bringing down an army bent on destroying the universe. A very big jump there. Kinda made you wonder what Riddick was actually saving.
But, yeah, I love Riddick as a character. He'll die for you if you're worthy of his trust, but he'll just as quickly leave you to die. I'm glad they're starting to work on a third movie (about time).
Mostly what I meant about originality was that it had some great science fiction: the prison on Crematoria was a high point for me, as well as the cryosleep stuff, and the fact that although you have some fantasy elements - the elementals, the Necromongers, the Furyan powers - you can tell that this story is set so far into the future that it almost doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility...in a way. Sorta like Q from Star Trek. His existence is totally crazy, but, then again, you can't help but think about just what we might find after we've colonized most of the galaxy. xD
Also, I'm gonna try and get myself a copy of the X-Box 360 game, Assault of Dark Athena; I hear it's an amazing game and a great addition to the series (the Butcher Bay part, at least).
Other than all that jazz, I'm still trying to think of some good science fiction. Battlestar Galactica was great until it started getting a tad pretentious not too long into the first season.
Starship Troopers, maybe? xD
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Post by jklinders on Aug 23, 2010 4:21:13 GMT 1
Starship Troopers? The book maybe. The movie was so highly bastardized I would have walked out of the theater if I had not already paid. Mind you in order to read the book you have to wade through some of the most viciously pro military rhetoric you will ever see in print. Thing about Heinlein is that every one of his books was laced with his opinion of the month. This was not so much a bad thing but it is something to be aware of.
Pretty sure some of the basis for the Terran and Zerg factions of Starcraft was ripped right from those pages though. And Terran society as presented in game was an exaggeration of what Heinlein showed us in his book. I loved His work to death but he could be pretty hit or miss.
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Post by Knightfall on Aug 23, 2010 4:53:58 GMT 1
I haven't read the book yet, which is probably the reason I liked the movie so much. I just got a kick out of the propaganda and how the military was pretty much your only way to become a full citizen. And that initial drop into Klendathu is one of my favorite all time scenes in any movie, lol. Plus, the parallels it would eventually have with post-9/11 America is astounding. I'm guessing a lot of that probably spilled over into Canada, so you probably know what I'm talking about. Despite all that, I suck for not having read a single Heinlein book. I know enough about the ST novel to know that the movie was more of a parody than a faithful adaption, but that's about it.
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renegadepoint
Lieutenant
Lets all take a step back from the weird alien impaling devices...
Posts: 188
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Post by renegadepoint on Aug 23, 2010 5:14:58 GMT 1
They also borrow a lot for actual quantom physics, which are some of my favorite elements of the ME universe. Like the thing in TIMS office and on the Normandy. Apparently there are particles that behave in a similar manner. Which makes that hologram thing more likely then element zero, which doesn't make any sense according to the known laws of physics.
I love that stuff, even though I don't understand it at all.
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Post by jklinders on Aug 23, 2010 13:35:25 GMT 1
The Quantam entanglement? Yeah, my jaw nearly hit the floor when I found out someone was screwing around with that. It's a cool idea and if we ever break the code for traveling really really long distances we will need it for communication.
I always grant sci-fi license to break physics when it comes to FTL travel. It just seems that element zero stretches that license further than most. That's still OK though since every advanced tech uses it, so the whole setting would literally come crashing down without it.
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Post by jklinders on Aug 23, 2010 13:41:29 GMT 1
I haven't read the book yet, which is probably the reason I liked the movie so much. I just got a kick out of the propaganda and how the military was pretty much your only way to become a full citizen. And that initial drop into Klendathu is one of my favorite all time scenes in any movie, lol. Plus, the parallels it would eventually have with post-9/11 America is astounding. I'm guessing a lot of that probably spilled over into Canada, so you probably know what I'm talking about. Despite all that, I suck for not having read a single Heinlein book. I know enough about the ST novel to know that the movie was more of a parody than a faithful adaption, but that's about it. Canada is only getting paranoid because of our insanely power hungry Bush jr prime minister Stephen Harper. He was a writer for a far right wing think tank before he got into politics and is about as far from average Canadian values as a politician can afford to get here. He'll get ditched by his party just as soon as they realize they will never get a full majority with him at the reins. If you want to read Heinlein, I would recommend first Stranger in a Strange Land. Then Starship Troopers. If you want to see what I mean about hit or miss read Farnham's Freehold. That last one is really icky though be prepared to take a long shower afterwards.
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Post by lieden on Aug 23, 2010 18:48:26 GMT 1
I would add Starman Jones to the Heinlein list. And his, probably fantasy, adventure, Glory Road. I never was very partial to Stranger in a Stranger's Land, and have yet to read Starship Troopers (I suspect I wouldn't like it!).
By the way, I previously raised the issue that it's difficult to write a new original setting without borrowing existing concepts; that's because I'm in the process of doing this (for an old threadbare story dragging its sorry ass over the last five years over a fandom it never belonged to in the first place!), and find myself having to skirt all sorts elements and concepts, because they remind me of this or that existing setting.
So how highly would you value originality in a new sci-fi setting? Did discovering Mass Effect's influences (blatant or not) reduce your enjoyment of the world the ME team built? Would you think it would be better if they somehow tweaked things into more original paths? Do you think that would even be possible? (especially considering jklinder's suggestion about sci-fi cannibalising itself for decades)
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Post by jklinders on Aug 23, 2010 22:13:45 GMT 1
Well Mass Effect's influences were always pretty clear to me. What I got from it was a fresh take on future tech and nifty look at what happens when an upstart race crashes a party that had been going on for centuries. In Sci-fi you usually have either space with no aliens kind of like with Herbert's Dune or some of Asimov's work. Or you have space with aliens and humans are either at the top of the pecking order or at least their place is really well established.
The whole upstart approach in my mind at least is underused and fairly original. I tend to focus on the world first when discovering a setting, then the characters then finally the plot. Build a good world even if it is derivative, fill it with interesting people and intrigue and I will come.
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Post by Knightfall on Aug 24, 2010 2:57:56 GMT 1
My thing with Mass Effect isn't that it was derivative, it's that it sometimes tried to pass off those little celebratory aspects as originality. The gyroscope thing was too much for me, but everything else it did was real subtle. I don't care if a story has space marines, or humans fighting aliens/themselves, or is pretty much a retooled Star Wars story. All that matters, and all that will ever matter, is that you write the story how you feel it should be written and do your best to avoid shortcuts.
Shortcuts are the bane of any writer, and readers will be able to tell when you do it. Putting your own spin on established tropes and themes is a-okay, but just don't get to a point where instead of spinning, you're copying and pasting. Mass Effect put a unique spin on a great many things and it was great. But when you compare the mass relay to the machine in Contact, it's the exact same definition. Intergalactic transport devices built by an ancient race that no one is aware of. /shrug
I wouldn't go as far as to say you should sidestep around any elements that are similar to other works, like you said you were doing, but be wary of what you're adding, keep it there if you want it there, and check it again later during the editing process. It's technically true that there is no more originality in fiction, but as long as you write the story as you feel it needs to be written, then there will be no other story like it.
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