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Post by jklinders on Mar 15, 2017 14:24:17 GMT 1
In the tone of the initial reviews of Iron Fist for Netflix I thought I would post a question. I've seen more and more a complaint about white people being cast in roles that have been perceived to be for characters or real life people that were of different races. In some cases (John Wayne I'm looking squarely at you, you never should have been cast as Genghis fucking Khan) these complaints are justified in totality. In others it was probably less than necessary but at least the role was competently and respectfully played. Alec Guinness playing Prince Faisal in Lawrence of Arabia being an example of this. then we have things that are a lot more nebulous and sketchy like people complaining that Scarlet Johannsen playing the lead in Ghost in the Shell or the latest debacle about Finn Jones playing Iron Fist. Finn Jones playing Iron fist should offend precisely no one. The character was never Asian. I would even argue that the insistence that the great kung fu master having to be an Asian plays to the type of positive stereotyping that I keep hearing in some circles is an example of micro-agressions. How is the implication that an Asian is automatically better than white people at martial arts any less harmful than the idea that Asians are also better at math? I'm pretty sure I'm not showing my privilege here. If they cast an Asian I wouldn't have batted an eye but I can't possibly be the only one who thinks this example of complaining is as racist as the what is being complained about. Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One in Dr Strange was mentioned by a few as well. I could agree...but it's fucking Tilda Swinton, so no, I won't complain. Especially since it's made pretty clear that the sorcerers are getting their members from all walks of life in all places. Again we are talking about only the Asian stereotype being the best at being...mystical? The Ghost in the Shell business is a special case. That movie is an American production much like the Anime original was a Japanese production. The idea that the characters are Japanese is not intrinsically important to the subject of the story. The reaction has been Generally favorable over there. www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/ghost-shell-trailer-exceeds-japanese-fans-expectations-948696 It may have been preferable to cast an Asian, but Johansen is a steady money maker and a damn good actor. Now I didn't really see any complaints that the live action Attack on Titan had only Asians in it even though it's original art had a clearly German aesthetic to it. So if we are going to be consistent in our complaining about these things, why are we not finding some nice Japanese speaking blond people to play those parts? Well anyway, that's definitely more than enough for a jumping off point for discussion if anyone cares. What do you think? Edit, dammit I made a grammar error in the poll and can't fix it.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Mar 15, 2017 14:52:01 GMT 1
I think, regarding the so-called "white-washing" in Hollywood, that a lot of people are getting offended just for the sake of getting offended. People have been playing roles that don't match their appearances for ages and ages. Of course there have been times when it was done poorly, and offensively (John Wayne, your assault upon the role of Ghengis Khan was completely unnecessary), but there are times when it is either done really well, or simply does not matter with regards to the role in question. Now, I am not saying that Kunta Kinte in "Roots" could be believably played by a white person, for example, because that would be intensely offensive or obvious reasons, same for if T'Challa / Black Panther was played by a non-black man (just as an example), but in some cases, the race of a character does not matter. Or, in the case of Iron Fist, Danny Rand as a character, is white in the comics! A white character being played by a white actor! How is that "white-washing"? In the case of Scarlett Johansson as the lead in "Ghost in the Shell", well - I don't know anything about the original that this is based on, but from what I read, the character she's playing is not actually canonized as Asian. As there's too much for me to type from what I read, here's a link to the article I got this from (just citing my sources here). As for Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One in "Dr Strange", well, I would not call that white-washing either - as the movie did not attempt to hide any other people of color from major roles (Chiwetel Ejiofor as Mordo, and Benedict Wong as Wong as examples), and the character of The Ancient One was, in the film, a Celtic sorceress, as opposed to a Tibetan sorcerer. That is actually a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation though, as Tilda Swinton's character in "Dr Strange" would be guaranteed to 'offend' someone somewhere regardless of who was cast - there is what happened: a White Woman cast as a Celtic sorceress, when the character in the comics was a Tibetan sorcerer, versus what could have happened: an Asian Man cast to match the comic, but then people complaining that this is reverse racism or something, feeding into the stereotype that only Asian men can be ancient mystics. And, as quoted from the Wikipedia article: Also, personally, I absolutely fucking love Tilda Swinton in all her awesomeness - she's among the top few on my list of favorite actors, alongside the likes of Helen Mirren and Cate Blanchett and Meryl Streep. So any chance I get to see her perform in a good movie, she just makes it better, in my opinion.
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Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Mar 15, 2017 20:46:42 GMT 1
With regard to Ghost in the Shell, The Major (Scarlett's character) is a full cyborg and the Japan in that series is not the Japan of today. In Ghost in the Shell, World War 3 happened and Japan managed to escape mostly unscathed compared to the rest of the world. In the aftermath, Japan became a much more multi-ethnic society in terms of having differing ethnic backgrounds living together and there isn't much in the way of petty racial tensions from what I remember. Also, Major Kusanagi, again, a full-blown cyborg to the point where only a fraction of her brain is organic with the rest of her being synthetic and she can swap out different bodies with little issue, so if she's in a Caucasian body, it's easily explained as that is how she wants to look. Also, her partner Batou is actually an American who moved to Japan after the war (not an uncommon thing in the GitS universe) and he's just another dude in terms of how he's treated most of the time.
To be honest, Scarlett Johansson is both a big draw and a skilled actress whose portrayal of Black Widow in the Marvel movies gives her the background to make her almost ideal for her role in Ghost in the Shell.
As far as other situations; as long as the role is done tastefully and with respect, I have no issues with someone portraying a character of another ethnicity. Going back to Marvel... The Kingpin in Daredevil is a departure from the comics in that they had Michael Clarke Duncan in the role of a character shown to be a rather large, overweight, but still powerful and strong white man with a vicious streak. And guess what? It fucking worked!
People need to chill the fuck out. Or, alternatively, have their stupidity numbed by liberal application of a 2x4 to their heads.
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Post by Clint Johnston on Mar 15, 2017 20:58:16 GMT 1
Hmm, interesting topic. Me, I'm of the opinion that the best actor should play the role, regardless of race. This goes both ways though. So if a Black Actor does the role best, he should get the part, even if it's George Washington. That of course depends on the source material and seriousness of the writers. A Black Washington wouldn't be appropriate in a serious biopic, but one step removed from that it's fine.
I think the fuss over Danny Rand is foolishness. On both sides. If it's so important he be Asian, why hasn't an Asian variation ever taken place in the comics? How would an Asian orphan being stranded in the Himalayas after his parents are killed truly alter the story that much? I'll wait and see if it's any good.
And Iron, why are you advocating liberal 2X4's? Won't you get kicked out of the Tea Party for that? LOL
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Post by jklinders on Mar 15, 2017 21:48:56 GMT 1
le snip And Iron, why are you advocating liberal 2X4's? Won't you get kicked out of the Tea Party for that? LOL
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Post by jklinders on Mar 15, 2017 21:52:52 GMT 1
More seriously, yeah, a serious biopic needs to be a lot more careful about race. For my part, regarding fictional characters I think people need to loosen up.
Again, it was kinda sketchy to cast Alec Guinness as Prince Faisal. But at least it worked. Older British films were fond of this practice but their casting choices were frequently excellent even with those missteps made.
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Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Mar 15, 2017 22:07:45 GMT 1
And Iron, why are you advocating liberal 2X4's? Won't you get kicked out of the Tea Party for that? LOL Good one, Clint. I got a good chuckle out of that one. Though, if you think about it, beating an idiot over the head with a liberal, thus causing damage to both, wouldn't be grounds for me to be kicked out. It's efficiency: two birds one stone and all that.
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Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Mar 15, 2017 22:11:10 GMT 1
More seriously, yeah, a serious biopic needs to be a lot more careful about race. For my part, regarding fictional characters I think people need to loosen up. Again, it was kinda sketchy to cast Alec Guinness as Prince Faisal. But at least it worked. Older British films were fond of this practice but their casting choices were frequently excellent even with those missteps made. How many Arab actors were around when that film was made who also had the skills to do such a movie justice? One thing that most of the screaming idiots tend to forget is that rule one of acting is "be a good actor"; if an actor looks right but can't act, then it falls apart and can draw fire from the "the producers want that group to look stupid by hiring such a shitty actor!" Catch-22.
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Post by Cali on Mar 15, 2017 22:53:57 GMT 1
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Post by jklinders on Mar 16, 2017 0:49:40 GMT 1
More seriously, yeah, a serious biopic needs to be a lot more careful about race. For my part, regarding fictional characters I think people need to loosen up. Again, it was kinda sketchy to cast Alec Guinness as Prince Faisal. But at least it worked. Older British films were fond of this practice but their casting choices were frequently excellent even with those missteps made. How many Arab actors were around when that film was made who also had the skills to do such a movie justice? One thing that most of the screaming idiots tend to forget is that rule one of acting is "be a good actor"; if an actor looks right but can't act, then it falls apart and can draw fire from the "the producers want that group to look stupid by hiring such a shitty actor!" Catch-22. Which is why I am generally not bothered by it. They did find quite a number of Arab actors. Not sure if they had any prospects that could bring the dignity they wanted. But more to the point, they likely wanted a seasoned and proven actor in an important role given that this was Peter O'Toole's feature film debut.
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Mar 16, 2017 1:34:18 GMT 1
Hmm, interesting topic. Me, I'm of the opinion that the best actor should play the role, regardless of race. This goes both ways though. So if a Black Actor does the role best, he should get the part, even if it's George Washington. That of course depends on the source material and seriousness of the writers. A Black Washington wouldn't be appropriate in a serious biopic, but one step removed from that it's fine. I agree with you here, Clint, that it goes both ways - in a truly serious historical representation, real historical figures should be portrayed by actors of the same race - however, depending on the artistic interpretation, that's not always necessary. Look at the Broadway musical "Hamilton" for example - written by Lin-Manuel Miranda, also starring Lin-Manuel Miranda in the original Broadway cast as American Founding Father Alexander Hamilton - that stage musical had a very ethnically diverse cast list, including a Latino (Lin-Manuel) as an American Founding Father, and actors/singers of various races as White American historical figures. And it worked beautifully! But, regarding the casting of the "best actor should play the role" - that's really it in a nutshell, and Clint makes an excellent point here. If they want the show / play / musical / movie to be really good, they need to take their talent from the best actors available, regardless of race.
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Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Mar 16, 2017 4:14:31 GMT 1
Not sure if you guys know this... but Disney is the overall studio that is making Ghost in the Shell (Touchstone Pictures is the subsidiary they use for their more serious/adult-focused films). And as Linders reports, the owners of the anime/manga to include the person who directed the anime are pleased with how the situation is being handled. The director of the anime himself said that Scarlett Johansson is perfect for the role and has nothing but praise for her.
People really need to chill the fuck out.
And as for non-Asians being inferior to Asians in martial arts... as much of a dickhead as he is, Steven Segal is still considered to be one of the overall top practitioners of Aikido and he is the first Western man to be recognized as a master of that fighting art. Race has nothing to do with actual skill, after all.
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Post by Tillian Panthesis on Mar 16, 2017 5:01:42 GMT 1
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Post by Mr. Glow on Mar 16, 2017 15:34:43 GMT 1
James Earl Jones did a great blackface.
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Post by Cali on Mar 23, 2017 4:22:13 GMT 1
Well, Iron Fist kinda sucks right?
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