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Post by Clint Johnston on Feb 2, 2015 23:03:07 GMT 1
Whoa whoa whoa... Hold it. I didn't come up with that title. These idiots did: chronicle.com/article/Colleges-Wrestle-With-How-to/151245/They changed it when enough people said something. I can't believe that a national paper for institutions of higher education is even asking the question. It is obvious that Rape occurs when the party of the first part engages in sexual intercourse with the party of the second part without their consent. This includes when the second party is drunk, high, or unconscious.
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Post by jklinders on Feb 3, 2015 0:01:40 GMT 1
It only seems obvious to people with a working frontal neural lobe. That seems to disengage for a lot of people whenever the topic of sex comes up.
my thoughts
Consent is rather nebulously defined under the law which is actually a good thing as it allows for some legal flexibility for individual cases. this makes an all encompassing policy on the matter for young adults first entering an adult world somewhat troublesome though. That goes for guys and gals both. throw in idiotic social pressures on what should be a natural and pleasurable act and you have a nightmare.
the following concepts regarding "casual sex" need to be taught in ALL schools prior to end of high school post haste.
1) Casual sex is by nature a high risk act. Any time you are having sex with someone you are not planning a long term relationship with you are at risk of severe physical, emotional, legal or biological harm.
2) If you must ignore point number 1, then do not imbibe alcohol or drugs or play with those that are.
3) If you must be so stupid as to ignore points 1 and 2, take every care to ensure that consent is without reservation and enthusiastic. "Sigh, oh fine let's do it," is not fitting that criteria.
too bad all north American school jurisdictions are too focused on "preserving the innocence of children" (ha, obviously those tards have forgotten their own school days) to actually give a shit about their kids in the real adult world of sex.
that my friends is my rant on this topic.
Linders out
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Feb 3, 2015 0:20:26 GMT 1
Consent can be a tricky thing, too... coercion is also a form of rape - forcing a person to say "yes" in order to avoid harm of another form coming to them or someone else they care about.
But the example in the article you linked - the girl who kept quiet, didn't say anything, started things consensually and then did not say "No" or indicate in any way that she was not willing, I will say that is not rape. She "flashed the occasional fake smile" and "waited for it to be over" but never actually said no or tried to push him off of her? That cannot be called rape. As far as the guy was aware, she wanted it.
However, if a girl is drunk enough that she doesn't really know what's happening, or cannot say either "Yay" or "Nay", then it becomes rape. If she cannot decisively indicate willingness, it must not be done.
This whole BS going on in colleges and universities where rape victims are being told that they were not raped needs to stop. To be told "You weren't raped because you don't show evidence of fighting back" is shite. Saying the word no, or trying to back off, should be enough to indicate unwillingness and should be enough to stop the instigator. If the instigator does not stop, then it becomes rape.
And we all know my opinion of rape and rapists, I think.
But I am just as disgusted at people falsely accusing others of rape when a rape did not occur - it ruins reputations and ruins lives. So it goes both ways here.
And now to steal a phrase from my wonderful fiance:
Lily Out
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Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Feb 3, 2015 3:29:39 GMT 1
Rape is a tricky thing. Despite the commonly quoted stats (which state at least one-in-five men will commit rape in their life for the tamer accounts which originate to questionable sources for that stat), at least 50% (lowball number) of the reported rapes are legit. Quite often a woman will cry rape on a guy to get even with him or if she regrets having the one-night stand. The way things are, even being suspected of rape will ruin a man for life. Full disclosure: those who actually rape will tempt my wrath and with my imagination I'd be a demon made flesh if such were to occur in my presence.
However, speaking with actual cops who work the beat, they tell me that false accusations make up something like 75% of the rape calls they get. And even if the accusation proves false, the man is fried anyways. This disgusts me not only because it pretty much destroys an innocent man, but also the prevalence of false accusations makes it much harder to find the true rapists and bring them to justice.
It's bad enough (the false accusations) in the military that I know several acquaintances who actually carry legal contracts with them which state the woman is willing and of sound mind (not drunk or high) which must be witnessed by a third party before they make their move just so they can cover their own ass which is a legal clusterfuck in and of itself.
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Post by Mr. Glow on Feb 3, 2015 4:23:55 GMT 1
Please tell me your mates call them "Bang Contracts" or something...
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Post by Cali on Feb 3, 2015 4:58:58 GMT 1
However, speaking with actual cops who work the beat, they tell me that false accusations make up something like 75% of the rape calls they get. And even if the accusation proves false, the man is fried anyways. This disgusts me not only because it pretty much destroys an innocent man, but also the prevalence of false accusations makes it much harder to find the true rapists and bring them to justice. Out of curiosity, how many of these folks do these coppers say end up convicted and imprisoned? EDIT: Also, I'll mostly be staying away from this thread for numerous reasons.
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Post by jklinders on Feb 3, 2015 11:10:47 GMT 1
75% seems awfully high Iron. Suspiciously like personal account rather than actual statistic high. Forgive me if I take the most recent high volume study at better word. please note that 35 out of 5651 prosecutions is under 2%. It does state that there more false claims than that out there but that they involve violence and domestic abuse of a different nature and do not constitute a "false claim" as such. other cases involved mitigating factors such as mental or social disability. in other parts of of the wiki article it stated that the prevalence of false claims are not out line with false reporting of other forms of crime. Now here is an interesting read on why some cases never see the inside of a courtroom. Yes, yes, it's Japan but don't think for a second that this shit is still not happening in some other parts of the civilized world. It will open your eyes.
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Post by CAPT Issac R. Madden on Feb 3, 2015 13:16:01 GMT 1
The 75% bit was a personal account from a detective I spoke with who worked in the Omaha Police Department's Special Victims Unit who talked about cases he was personally involved in, the majority of which were women who got caught cheating by their significant other and called rape. He also said his experience is not typical and the average is something on the order of 10-25%. The investigations that turned out to be false accusations were determined to be such when medical and forensic examination showed no evidence of rape and a few times detectives overheard the false-accuser bragging that "she got him (the accused) good". Other times, the evidence showed that the accuser was no where near the accused (as in being in completely different cities) when the accuser claimed the attack occurred. To my knowledge, those who deliberately make false reports are rarely charged. In the military, so much as being under suspicion of rape is an automatic career-ender, even if the accused is cleared or not even charged. This is an incredibly murky subject for a number of reasons. This is an article discussing false accusations (written by a woman, for what it's worth): www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html
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Post by Lily Ariel Linders on Feb 3, 2015 14:04:06 GMT 1
I find it hard to believe that so many accusations are false - I would like to believe women would not normally do that sort of thing.
However, I will also say in regards to real false accusations (that is, when the accused is actually innocent and the accusation really was false), it ruins it for real victims who, as a result, have a harder time reporting and being believed when they really are attacked.
And so many rape victims simply don't report it because they know how hard it is to prove.
Especially since so many rapes are not the "stranger violently attacks a girl" but are in fact date rapes or - in some cases - just a 'friend' getting too aggressive when hanging out with a girl who only invited him over to hang out and watch a movie (just as an example) with no intention on her part of having anything physical happen.
Maybe there is a noticeable number of false accusations reported, but... here's the big question... how many real rapes go unreported because the victim is afraid of the repercussions or the cross-examination with questions like "Why'd you invite him over" or "What were you wearing" or "Why didn't you fight harder, are you sure he raped you, or did you want it and then change you mind after it happened?".
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Post by jklinders on Feb 3, 2015 22:14:45 GMT 1
I am not saying that there are not false reports and that there are not cases where it's done maliciously. But I would like to point out something here. this is yet another example of how this one crime is treated differently. Before, it was a matter of shame and hardly anyone reported it because the victim was "tainted", now the accused gets tainted whether it was a valid charge or not. Is it really so hard to wipe the slate clean if you are exonerated. Or is this somehow an unconscious indicator of how hard it can be to get a charge to court or a conviction? Food for thought. Maybe there is a noticeable number of false accusations reported, but... here's the big question... how many real rapes go unreported because the victim is afraid of the repercussions or the cross-examination with questions like "Why'd you invite him over" or "What were you wearing" or "Why didn't you fight harder, are you sure he raped you, or did you want it and then change you mind after it happened?". the estimates on unreported sexual assault rates are little less than utterly depressing. www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/Pages/rape-notification.aspxA le snip from the link "The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) reports that the majority of rapes and sexual assaults perpetrated against women and girls in the United States between 1992 and 2000 were not reported to the police. Only 36 percent of rapes, 34 percent of attempted rapes, and 26 percent of sexual assaults were reported. [3] Reasons for not reporting assault vary among individuals, but one study identified the following as common: [4] Self-blame or guilt. Shame, embarrassment, or desire to keep the assault a private matter. Humiliation or fear of the perpetrator or other individual's perceptions. Fear of not being believed or of being accused of playing a role in the crime. Lack of trust in the criminal justice system. In the NIJ funded Sexual Assault Among Latinas Study (SALAS), it was found that victims did not commonly seek help from the criminal justice system, but did seek informal sources of help such as family and friends. However, one third of the women included in the study did not report their victimization to anyone. " I would suspect some parity between this and other forms of unreported violent crimes. though I cannot be actually arsed to look into that. I suspect the number increases immensely for men who have been similarly assaulted.
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